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Why no capships in high-sec?

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Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2017-04-15 07:24:36 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

B is not correct either, it has the potential to create balance issues between risk and reward in the game. If a cap-ship can run in High Sec and make more ISK than a normal Battleship doing the same then that's had a significant impact.


I've seen numbers that suggest carriers running level 5 missions isn't a particularly good return on investment. A little better than a level 4 mission, using a lot more expensive ship, with a lot more risk involved. Given that, I highly doubt running level 4 missions which can easily be run in a battleship (I run them with my eyes closed half the time, and yawning, and have never lost a ship) is going to break the bank.

Running high-sec incursions in a battleship would no doubt be a better money-maker than running level 4's in a capship. If the guy wants to nerf his making of ISK and make suboptimal choices, let him cut his own throat.

Was the scourge of capships running level 4's and crashing the Eve economy even mentioned as the reason to remove capships from high-sec? Yes or no?
Cade Windstalker
#22 - 2017-04-15 07:31:39 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

B is not correct either, it has the potential to create balance issues between risk and reward in the game. If a cap-ship can run in High Sec and make more ISK than a normal Battleship doing the same then that's had a significant impact.


I've seen numbers that suggest carriers running level 5 missions isn't a particularly good return on investment. A little better than a level 4 mission, using a lot more expensive ship, with a lot more risk involved. Given that, I highly doubt running level 4 missions which can easily be run in a battleship (I run them with my eyes closed half the time, and yawning, and have never lost a ship) is going to break the bank.

Running high-sec incursions in a battleship would no doubt be a better money-maker than running level 4's in a capship. If the guy wants to nerf his making of ISK and make suboptimal choices, let him cut his own throat.

Was the scourge of capships running level 4's and crashing the Eve economy even mentioned as the reason to remove capships from high-sec? Yes or no?


So, first off you're cherry picking. Again.

Please address the full argument not just the bits you think you might be able to argue against.

Now then, whoever quoted you that was either comparing to something even more ridiculously lucrative, or has bad numbers to go off of (or is just bad at math). Running Level 5s with 1 Carrier gets you more than blitzing dual-boxed Level 4s, especially if you're good about your LP conversions.

Since you seem to possibly be having trouble identifying the general point here let me spell it out for you.

There is no one single reason Capital Ships were removed from High Sec space. The reason was PvP, PvE, concerns over future balance in HIgh Sec, ganking, logistics, and basically everything else that Capitals can do or affect. Cap ships were new, CCP gave them free reign, and it was very quickly made clear to both players and devs that this was a poor idea to the point that capital ships only stayed in High Sec for a matter of months at most at a time in Eve's history when patches were routinely six months or more apart. Considering that Capitals are more powerful now than they were then it seems amazingly unlikely that CCP is going to backtrack on this.

There is no single reason for you to twist some weird argument around to try and strangle it to death.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2017-04-15 08:12:56 UTC
Cause they're afraid of me having one.

But seriously there's no point of a big fat slow ship that can't go anywhere you'd want to go and needs help just to move around and can't dock anywhere.
I'd love to have a dreadnought cause they look cool there's just nothing to do with them.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-04-15 08:52:55 UTC
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Hello Meow Kitty wrote:
Why are cap ships in the game at all?



No, I'm for ships that everyone can fly and enjoy with dynamic gameplay along with straightline balance. I'm not for ships a few old vets fly. How many legit new players start and say "hey I'm going to train straight into a cap ship and wait 6+ months."

If you talk about weekend visitors they are not "legit players". They visit the game and then left as soon as new stuff is over.

The Game should not change for those....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2017-04-15 09:03:01 UTC
Another carebear whine thread.

"Wah, wah...I don't have the balls to go fly a Cap where they can be flown...CCP let me have a Cap in highsec where I can fap over my skillz with no risk".

Pretty much sums it up. Want to fly the big ships, go fly one. Quit the carebear whinge and whine.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2017-04-15 09:25:36 UTC
Undock games in supers!

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2017-04-15 10:18:56 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
I'm on a months-long train right now to get into cap ships. It's my choice, it's a choice I want to make.
Sounds like you made your choice, so I suggest starting to deal with the consequences too. Of course you can hope that CCP will change a mechanic that everyone seems to like, and that generated problems before it reached it's current state. But I wouldn't have high hopes if I were you.

I'd rather suggest figuring out what group could grant a reasonable ratio of content / safety for your future big toy.

I know one I can vouch for. P

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.
Jacques d'Orleans
#28 - 2017-04-15 10:32:01 UTC
As the actor Rutger Hauer once, in Bladerunner, said:
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
I've seen hundreds of Retrievers burning in Scheenins' belts.
I've seen dozens of Charons smouldering in the dark..." Cool

I would love to see a gatecamp in High Sec with Caps/Supers.
I would love to see Mining fleets dock up for weeks with pee in their eyes, just because a Cap travelled thru their system.
I would love to see local exploding when Caps block Niarja.
OMFG, all that salt, all those tears, so much fun.

Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Lothros Andastar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-04-15 11:04:11 UTC
For the same reason you can't own your own nukes. The empires disallow capsuleers to bring them to their territory.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#30 - 2017-04-15 11:06:48 UTC
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#31 - 2017-04-15 11:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
As much as it would be cool on the one hand - the game works quite well progression and balance wise without them in high sec.

However in some ways it would be nice if there was some way to mix them into the gameplay a bit more so that people can experience and potentially aspire towards them right from the start.

(That and owning a capital in highsec is still an exclusive club).
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#32 - 2017-04-15 13:00:57 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
...
GIVE ME YOUR BEST ARGUMENT.

Go ahead, shoot. If it's one of the ones already presented here, I already said I'm not so impressed. If it's another one, let's hear it...



A mind has to be open first before it can receive enlightenment.


As for the capital thing...

Yeah, the devs once thought that only a few Titans would ever be built because they took so much to build, which is why they were so OP when they were released.

They made a lot of bad calls early in the game and we are still facing the consequences. Just because it sounds so cool doesn't mean it would be the best way to do it, in the long run.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2017-04-15 13:45:10 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Another carebear whine thread.

"Wah, wah...I don't have the balls to go fly a Cap where they can be flown...CCP let me have a Cap in highsec where I can fap over my skillz with no risk".

Pretty much sums it up. Want to fly the big ships, go fly one. Quit the carebear whinge and whine.


Yet another poster with diarrhea of the mouth syndrome, opening his mouth and spewing all manner of BS about which he knows nothing. Yet another poster who thinks anyone who disagrees with him must be a 'carebear.' Etc. etc. etc. Predictable.

I don't plan to fly capships in highsec. As I've stated, I don't think its a good ROI to do level 4s in them (and that's assuming level 4s could even be run, which most of them couldn't). I also wouldn't plan to mine in a carrier or dread (I don't even mine in ships specifically built for it). I just didn't see the point of artificial rules and limitations in something that was supposed to be a sandbox.

About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#34 - 2017-04-15 14:17:59 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:

About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear.


You can do that on the test server and better than high sec.
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2017-04-15 14:34:00 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Another carebear whine thread.

"Wah, wah...I don't have the balls to go fly a Cap where they can be flown...CCP let me have a Cap in highsec where I can fap over my skillz with no risk".

Pretty much sums it up. Want to fly the big ships, go fly one. Quit the carebear whinge and whine.


Yet another poster with diarrhea of the mouth syndrome, opening his mouth and spewing all manner of BS about which he knows nothing. Yet another poster who thinks anyone who disagrees with him must be a 'carebear.' Etc. etc. etc. Predictable.

I don't plan to fly capships in highsec. As I've stated, I don't think its a good ROI to do level 4s in them (and that's assuming level 4s could even be run, which most of them couldn't). I also wouldn't plan to mine in a carrier or dread (I don't even mine in ships specifically built for it). I just didn't see the point of artificial rules and limitations in something that was supposed to be a sandbox.



The sand at that end of the sandbox isn't deep enough.

Quote:


About the most I'd want to do with a capship in highsec would be undock and test the thing out a bit before actually using it in a real setting. I guess that makes me a carebear.


If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings. If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2017-04-15 14:48:14 UTC
Coralas wrote:

If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings.

No reason to assume I'm 'risk averse,' I was just saying if I could think of something I'd do with it in highsec, undocking and taking it for a test run would be the only thing.

Quote:
If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway.


Don't know why people who love to spout "it's a sandbox" every other word out of their mouths also want to tell others what they have and don't have a use for, and why. Maybe somebody just wants to see the damn thing sitting in his hanger.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#37 - 2017-04-15 15:01:26 UTC
Every single discussion of caps in high sec comes down to "I want to have my cake and eat it too" thinking. CCP was specifically asked during the last fanfest "why no capitals in high sec?". They said (paraphrasing) "because high sec is balanced for sub capitals and EVERYTHING would have to be changed to make them work without destroying the gameplay experience for everyone who doesn't have a capital ship".

The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away).

If you want capitals, go to the 87% of New Eden space that isn't high sec and have a blast. I do.
mkint
#38 - 2017-04-15 15:07:15 UTC
OP: "I'm going to pretend my question is legitimate but then take the indefensible position because pointless arguing is the only way I can climax."

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#39 - 2017-04-15 15:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Jenn aSide wrote:

The people in high sec who think capitals are a good idea just don't understand how super rich 'bad guys' could use those to screw over everyone else (if you think it's bad for 'new players' right now, wait till that get blapped by a carrier's fighters when the carrier itself is 1000 km away).

If you want capitals, go to the 87% of New Eden space that isn't high sec and have a blast. I do.


I'm not sure on that argument - someone flying a pimped out vindi or mach or whatever is going to rip a newer player a new one just as much as a carrier or dread could rip them a new one - it is just another step up the same ladder.

In general though capitals would give older more experienced players the ability to leverage power that could significantly shift the balance of highsec especially as they would have far more control over who they are exposed to than when flying them in low, null or w-space.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#40 - 2017-04-15 15:29:29 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Coralas wrote:

If you are risk averse, then you just need to buy the thing in a place where you are blue to the surroundings.

No reason to assume I'm 'risk averse,' I was just saying if I could think of something I'd do with it in highsec, undocking and taking it for a test run would be the only thing.

Quote:
If you are not able to achieve that, then you probably don't have a use for it anyway.


Don't know why people who love to spout "it's a sandbox" every other word out of their mouths also want to tell others what they have and don't have a use for, and why. Maybe somebody just wants to see the damn thing sitting in his hanger.

Yes, but you cannot be sure it will be kept there. Unless you forbid them to undock, which would just cause another bottle of wine from the next capsuleer.

Allowing caps freely in HS with or without guns loaded would most likely result in a massive change of nullsec politics regarding HS and the end of HS gameplay as we know it today for certain parts of HS space.

Despite the changes to industry, HS will always remain part of nullsec logistics in some way or another. Adding power projection to that is only a good idea, if you have an overall plan for changing HS gameplay. And I doubt, that everybody in HS would be fond of that kind of change.

Remove standings and insurance.