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Please explain why CCP wants to stop npcs dropping meta items

Author
Cade Windstalker
#41 - 2017-04-10 22:05:54 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?


Oh hai, so I'd like to correct a couple of assumptions here.

"Gun mining" these days produces a tiny fraction of the mineral demands of the game, and certainly a tiny fraction of the Megacyte used in the game.

This is the reprocessing result for any meta 425mm Railgun, note that it produces a total of *16* Megacyte. In comparison a single reprocessing of Arkonor produces 320 Megacyte and 22,000 Trit. That's less than half the Trit and roughly 20 times the Megacyte. Also note that that's actually on the high side for a module in terms of Megacyte output, most produce 6 or less.

The average volume of Megacyte traded in The Forge in the last three weeks per day was around 22.9 million, that means it would take 1.4 million module drops to supply the average daily Megacyte needs of Jita. Since that volume is clearly ridiculous, and would supply more than 4 times the daily Trit requirements of Jita, we can easily assume that most Megacyte is already coming from Null ore sources.

That's not to say that such a change wouldn't have any impact on the mineral market, but it would likely be small and largely confined to the minerals high-sec is already rich in, since those are the primary reprocessing product of unwanted meta modules.

Also it's unlikely that people Carrier ratting in Null (where the vast majority of Null NPC kills come from) would bother to pick up the relatively low value components ratting would produce. Similarly you rarely see someone ratting in a Carrier and salvaging their wrecks even on an alt. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more common in High Sec. It's just not really worth the time required to loot a few million off the field rather than just moving on to the next site.

Given this it seems unlikely that Null as a whole will be completely independent of the rest of the game for Meta module supply, the same way they aren't really now, especially since it seems unlikely the faction flavor of drops is going to go away with a change like this. If you live in Guristas space but you want Meta Beam Lasers you're going to need drops from Sansha or Blood Raider ships, the same as today.

Similarly a newbro looking to get into industry will have to buy components off the market, the same as he does today.

It's not really a concern for someone just starting out though. Lots of simple T1 items don't even require Megacyte or other minerals that are only really available from Null.

Please let me know if I missed something in there or if something seems disjointed or doesn't make sense. I'm a bit under the weather today. X
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2017-04-11 22:34:26 UTC
This would be a very positive, already long overdue change.

Gun mining isn't really the problem any more though. Right now, if you're a new player, looking to get into industry and production, you are undercut by a constant stream of meta-level rat loot, usually dumped on the market for less than the mineral costs of producing the inferior meta-0 T1 item. There's essentially no point and no profit in T1 industry (except maybe for very high demand consumables such as ammuntition) as things stand and it is a frustrating and confusing experience.

Requiring a meta-0 module to create a working meta 1-4 module turns this situation on its head and allows new players dipping their toes into industry to actually do something constructive, as they're no longer cut out of the entire process by raw loot going straight to market as functioning equipment.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#43 - 2017-04-11 23:05:59 UTC
Finally a reason to dust off the ole' noctis. I like it.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.

Eternus8lux8lucis
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#44 - 2017-04-12 00:06:15 UTC
This also allows newbros to do the boring but now more lucrative tasks for the vets when they get to null by cleaning up sites as the loot produced doenst necessarily mean having to ship large m3 amounts to high sec to make isk and only rely on a few higher value items to transport as you will be able to sell locally much easier.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Hello Meow Kitty
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2017-04-12 13:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hello Meow Kitty
seller1122 wrote:
So after watching some of the fanfest videos I took note that CCP Fozzie wants to stop npcs dropping meta items and instead get them to drop components for us to build the meta items as part of their vision to have the players build all items. This doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons.

First off it feels just like its adding in an arbitrary layer of complexity without really providing any benefit, you just have to go through an extra step before you have the item to use or sell.

Secondly it removes the ability for the market to control the pricing of the items based upon their usefulness; instead as (I assume) each item will be built from similar components to each other, their pricing will be arbitrary set by ratios defined by CCP in the BPCs.

Thirdly it doesn't quite make sense from a "lore" / practical standpoint. Player ships drop their equipment when they die; why now for NPCs should they behave different and drop components instead of modules, unless of course the intent is for the same to be done with player ships ?

As a general side note is this change expected to affect faction / deadspace / officer items as well or just the basic meta 0-4 modules from standard rats?



Officer items should be removed from the game anyways. OP items that are imbalanced (don't care about the killmail loss).

I prefer deadspace drops myself while exploring (shinny loot) but maybe these drops Fozzie is referring to are Wormholes or a specific type of drop from missions maybe? Adding exploration missions :) Players need to go to the system and scan down the mission objective :()
Yorrick Kayne
Queens of the Drone Age
#46 - 2017-04-12 13:43:54 UTC
CCP wants to stop npcs dropping meta items because those are to bulky for my cargo hold. Whatever drops instead will be smaller, at least I hope so!
Trixi Laminer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2017-04-12 14:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Trixi Laminer
Maybe the prints for meta components can drop in the mostly useless data hacking sites? P
Or introduce the prints in some unused npc corporations LP stores.
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
#48 - 2017-04-12 16:42:53 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Cade, this one is for you since you like to think of the economy as encompassing the entire star cluster......

Getting rid of 'Gun Mining' would make Arkonor and Bistot the only sources for megacyte.

With the number of combat anoms in nullsec, Null would have no reason to use Markets to acquire these components for any meta modules they would wish to use.
However places like Highsec mostly and maybe even losec (WH have access to AB) would be sol without gun mining to supplement their industry needs, especially in the case of new bros trying to cut their teeth on the subject would be hard pressed to get some without using the market.

So, Pros/Cons, balance/counterbalance for this that you might be able to come up with?
Would something have to be buffed for Highsec/Losec to make this palatable in 'every ones' eyes?


Oh hai, so I'd like to correct a couple of assumptions here.

"Gun mining" these days produces a tiny fraction of the mineral demands of the game, and certainly a tiny fraction of the Megacyte used in the game.

This is the reprocessing result for any meta 425mm Railgun, note that it produces a total of *16* Megacyte. In comparison a single reprocessing of Arkonor produces 320 Megacyte and 22,000 Trit. That's less than half the Trit and roughly 20 times the Megacyte. Also note that that's actually on the high side for a module in terms of Megacyte output, most produce 6 or less.

The average volume of Megacyte traded in The Forge in the last three weeks per day was around 22.9 million, that means it would take 1.4 million module drops to supply the average daily Megacyte needs of Jita. Since that volume is clearly ridiculous, and would supply more than 4 times the daily Trit requirements of Jita, we can easily assume that most Megacyte is already coming from Null ore sources.

That's not to say that such a change wouldn't have any impact on the mineral market, but it would likely be small and largely confined to the minerals high-sec is already rich in, since those are the primary reprocessing product of unwanted meta modules.

Also it's unlikely that people Carrier ratting in Null (where the vast majority of Null NPC kills come from) would bother to pick up the relatively low value components ratting would produce. Similarly you rarely see someone ratting in a Carrier and salvaging their wrecks even on an alt. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's much more common in High Sec. It's just not really worth the time required to loot a few million off the field rather than just moving on to the next site.

Given this it seems unlikely that Null as a whole will be completely independent of the rest of the game for Meta module supply, the same way they aren't really now, especially since it seems unlikely the faction flavor of drops is going to go away with a change like this. If you live in Guristas space but you want Meta Beam Lasers you're going to need drops from Sansha or Blood Raider ships, the same as today.

Similarly a newbro looking to get into industry will have to buy components off the market, the same as he does today.

It's not really a concern for someone just starting out though. Lots of simple T1 items don't even require Megacyte or other minerals that are only really available from Null.

Please let me know if I missed something in there or if something seems disjointed or doesn't make sense. I'm a bit under the weather today. X


Megacyte was never oversupplied by rat drops the oversupplied mineral was nocxium from drone poop.
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