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Use Randomization and Contract Slots to Make the Bounty System FUN

Author
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#1 - 2017-04-10 19:01:14 UTC
I've put together a video to explain my thoughts on a relatively simple bounty hunting system that would replace and improve the existing (and unfun) system.

HERE IS THE VIDEO

The system, for anyone who doesn't want to watch, is based on two things: Contract Slots and Randomization.

Instead of bounties being open to anyone (and therefore being easily game-able and offering no "hunting"), players have Bounty Contract Slots that they can go to a CONCORD office to fill. When they request a bounty, they are assigned a target AT RANDOM out of ALL BOUNTIES and given a time limit to find and kill that person.

They can take out multiple bounties at once, but there would be a slot limit to prevent anyone from "rolling" through bounties until finding someone favorable (like their alt, or a corpmate). You could only roll new bounties by completing the previous ones, or potentially by paying LP tied to previous successful bounties.

If/when they kill their target, they would receive the full payment for ONE bounty against that person. So if 30 people put 1 billion ISK bounties on the target, the killer would get 1 billion ISK, and the number of slots the target has in the system would drop from 30 to 29. When it reaches zero, they cannot be hunted. There would be a hard cap on the number of people who can simultaneously be assigned to any one person.

In order to prevent collusion, there would be a non-ISK incentive for the target to kill the hunter. It could be, for instance, that killing your hunter makes you immune to bounties for a month. Or it grants you LP with a certain faction. Or it causes your hunter to experience SP loss. This will reduce the odds a hunter would be willing to trust the target in an attempt to split the prize. However, collusion would not necessarily be seen as an absolute evil, as it adds another layer of dynamic and backstab potential.

A very good discussion of the pros and cons of this system has started on Reddit, here. The main concerns seem to be around collusion and crimewatch, with many potential fixes proposed, including the implementation of a "kill right" like engagement timer, or the temporary reinstatement of the non-mutual watch list, or delayed concord response, or a suspect timer for various bounty related actions.

What do you think?

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-04-10 19:23:08 UTC
So, another 'allow bounties to get around CONCORD in High Sec' idea to "improve" the bounty system?

So, first problem here, what's to stop someone from cycling through this with alts?

Second problem, in what way is this actually an improvement over the current system for someone not exploiting it? There are something like a couple million active or semi-active characters in the game. Of those a tiny fraction are actually practically hunt-able. As in, people who undock on a regular or semi-regular basis outside of Wormholes, Sov Null, or somewhere similarly inaccessible.

Further the odds of getting someone in a combat capable ship that can provide anything other than an easy mark is similarly reduced, since at this point the population of possible marks is basically 'people who undock in High Sec'. Everyone else can already be killed through other means.

So, what this basically turns into is a frustrating RNG-fest lottery for anyone actually hoping for a fight, and a "maybe I get a free Freighter kill today" lottery for the gankers...

No, thanks, not a fan.



The contract idea is interesting, in that you could assign a bounty and/or killright to a group in exchange for money with the expectation that they'll successfully get your target, but that runs into the same issues we already have today. People who tend to have kill-rights don't tend to fly things worth exploding, and people with bounties and no killrights aren't worth killing just for the bounty.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-04-10 19:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
There is absolutely nothing preventing me from contacting every single bounty contract target I get from telling them to duel me in an unfit frigate so I can collect the bounty and give them half. Bonus point for them include not getting killed later in a more expensive ship and a portion of the bounty if I am trust worthy.

The reason why you can't make bounty work in EVE is because death is not permanent. Bounties can work IRL because once I catch you or kill you, you are in jail for X time or dead in a permanent fashion. Nobody want to hunt for pennies but as soon as it pays, people "turn themselves in" to collect because there is not enough cost to doing so.

EDIT: Hell why would I even tell them to undock in a ship when I can just outright provide them the ship to be killed for free so they can be 100% sure there is nothing at risk from their side even if I don't pay them after getting the kill.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2017-04-10 19:37:59 UTC
So what happens when all of your bounty slots are unsubbed, jita alts, titan pilots, cyno alts and/or AFK cloakers? You know, people you can't actually kill as a highsec bounty hunter? Especially if you don't have the LP required to cycle to new targets?
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#5 - 2017-04-10 20:12:13 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So what happens when all of your bounty slots are unsubbed, jita alts, titan pilots, cyno alts and/or AFK cloakers? You know, people you can't actually kill as a highsec bounty hunter? Especially if you don't have the LP required to cycle to new targets?


You wait. Fortunately this is easily tweakable to be any number of slots, and any length of cooldown necessary to be fair. Too many Titan alts? Increase number of slots, or shorten duration of contracts.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2017-04-10 20:14:57 UTC
So it is a system that you will spend most of your time literally unable to use, and the rest simply messaging the guy to split the isk?

Wow.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#7 - 2017-04-10 20:16:03 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
So, another 'allow bounties to get around CONCORD in High Sec' idea to "improve" the bounty system?

So, first problem here, what's to stop someone from cycling through this with alts?


This is answered in your next question:

Quote:
There are something like a couple million active or semi-active characters in the game


If you have a cap of 3 or 4 characters, it would probably take you several thousand accounts of rolling before you got what you wanted. Good luck!

Also, it has been suggested elsewhere that there are tiers of bounties. So if you are a Level I Bounty Hunter (maybe Alphas are limited to this), you cannot accept bounties past a certain value. The only way to raise your Hunter License Level would be to complete bounties, which you wouldn't have on hundreds of alts.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2017-04-10 20:20:37 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So what happens when all of your bounty slots are unsubbed, jita alts, titan pilots, cyno alts and/or AFK cloakers? You know, people you can't actually kill as a highsec bounty hunter? Especially if you don't have the LP required to cycle to new targets?


You wait. Fortunately this is easily tweakable to be any number of slots, and any length of cooldown necessary to be fair. Too many Titan alts? Increase number of slots, or shorten duration of contracts.


This only increase the length of the list of mail I have to send every X days because it's still more profitable for everyone to get their bounty cleared in a mutually agreed upon way.
Cade Windstalker
#9 - 2017-04-10 21:23:15 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
So, another 'allow bounties to get around CONCORD in High Sec' idea to "improve" the bounty system?

So, first problem here, what's to stop someone from cycling through this with alts?


This is answered in your next question:

Quote:
There are something like a couple million active or semi-active characters in the game


If you have a cap of 3 or 4 characters, it would probably take you several thousand accounts of rolling before you got what you wanted. Good luck!

Also, it has been suggested elsewhere that there are tiers of bounties. So if you are a Level I Bounty Hunter (maybe Alphas are limited to this), you cannot accept bounties past a certain value. The only way to raise your Hunter License Level would be to complete bounties, which you wouldn't have on hundreds of alts.


Except for a couple of problems with this.

First off, what any ganker wants is basically "something to kill" so basically the same subset of targets that the average Bounty Hunter wants, maybe more actually. If a ganker can't get something to kill then a Bounty Hunter almost certainly can't, making this system as bad or worse than the current one.

You could mitigate this by having the system not grant any sort of kill right, but then you're just stuck with the opposite problem, where you probably still can't actually get to and kill your target, but if you get someone in High Sec you either need to gank them (time consuming, people intensive, and expensive in many cases) or you've got a dead bounty even if you have someone who undocks.

I'm really failing to see what, if anything, about this system is supposed to make Bounty Hunting a viable profession here. Either from the perspective of those placing bounties or the perspective of those hunting them.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#10 - 2017-04-11 00:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Bounty system has a lot of potential, I am surprised so many people are willing to shoot this idea down without really being constructive. I for one would like to see it fixed; anything is better than the current system.

I watched the video and I have some things to suggest.

#1) You shouldn't be able to hunt people in hisec risk-free with this. The reason is that it allows another way for people to be permanently "wardecced" as individuals. If you want to kill someone in hisec for their bounty you should be prepared to gank them and take the appropriate sec status hit (as a real bounty hunter would).

#2) The bounty hunter(s) should get 100% of the ISK value of the target's ship (not some percentage, and not the full bounty amount). That way the system cannot be exploited or abused (which your original suggestion still allows), but makes it worthwhile. Right now the system is 20% I believe, which is simply not enough. It needs to be worthwhile. You gank a bountied astero pilot? You get approx. 100mil. You gank a bountied impairor? You're a scrub and you get 1 ISK.

However, it' VERY important that the value received does not exceed 100% of the target's ship because that is the failsafe mechanisms that prevents anyone from having their buddy collect the bounty payment.

The benefit of this approach is that bounty hunters ganking in hisec would ultimately likely become the victims of bounties themselves because they will have ganked and/or pissed off a lot of people. With their -10.0 status from ganking for bounties in hisec, they will ultimately end up being hunted themselves (as a real bounty hunter would) and THEY are engageable in hisec because of their criminal status.

ALSO, this takes the emphasis off of ganking miners and **** because if you go for bountied mission runner, incursioners etc. you will get a legit payout.

^^ I think these two changes fix 90% of what is wrong with the current bounty system.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#11 - 2017-04-11 01:16:26 UTC
Yeah this doesn't really solve any issues, just makes it full of problems in other ways.



Really the only way I can see making the bounty system work even close to sort of properly is to pair the bounty system and contract system to make specific bounties in the terms of x isk for y ship class or value.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#12 - 2017-04-11 05:10:25 UTC
The biggest point most people miss on this one.........

Is the fact despite being exploitable or not, a new system must be made from the ground up, and it must be tailored so that a true Bounty Hunter profession can exist, any exploitation that can occur just has to be made not fun, not non existing.

So....
1.) Random get a mission generation, check
2.) Status level determination for increased rewards....check
3.) timers and cooldowns....check


As to ability to kill someone regardless of security space, yeah that should be feature special of a bounty hunter, who cares if someone attempts to exploit it, let them. Just make it difficult to do so, so not fun. A bounty hunter that is truly a bounty hunter will not care who is the target, just that he has a target.

I like the idea that you would have to have standings to increase level of type of Bounty Contract you can accept, thats a slight improvement on just having whatever for number of Bounty's.
So im going to guess, lv1 Agent ability (for sake of reference) can collect Bounty's up to 10 million ISK.
lv2: up to 25 million
lv3: up to 50 million
lv4: up to 100 million
lv5: up to 250 million

With the above example: maybe then CCP could put hard caps on the amount of Bounty once has to place on some one, as in literally ask the person placing the contract exactly what level of Disintegration you want and require that price plus a (ISK SINK) fee to place the bounty.
Also I think that if you wish to place a Bounty there should be Bounty Agents that you have to go to, no more randomly adding a Bounty on a pilot from space.

This should also make it easier to create a Random Contract Generator, because then you can no longer select how much Bounty you want to place on some one, the RCG simply has to keep track how many Contracts of what level a given character has against them.

Hmm, standings and Hunter License, yep sounds good, the more Bounty's you complete the higher your level goes up and the better contracts you can receive. One thing, to have a License an maintain it, I still feel a requirement of Sec Status should be involved especially with the new Concord Ships coming out. I feel 3.0 minimum should be required to get a License, and a hefty ISK price to even purchase a Hunter's License, say 1 Billion Isk or more, and if your sec status goes below the minimum you lose the License, Contracts, etc and have to repurchase said license all over again.

Timers and Cool downs: I think the contact level should determine the timer.
Lv1: 14 days to complete, with a 24hr cool down after completion or deadline is reached.
Lv2: 12 days/24 hrs
Lv3: 10 days/36 hrs
Lv4: 8 days/48 hrs
lv 5: 5 days/72 hrs

The biggest thing I must reiterate on, a rework of the Bounty system should reflect on making Hunter's a true profession as in that is what you do in the game. Possible Exploiters, gankers, etc...who cares about them. If the system can be gamed at all, let it, just make it really PITA and time consuming to do so, literally make the Hunter Profession something that will take your time and effort to even do especially for better contracts and I am sure you will find the ones looking for easy kills etc will say "feck this sh*t" and go back to what they normally do. Essentially, make the game play/profession require it to be a full time job(meaning that is what you do and nothing else because you dont have time for anything else) like profession, so it is only fun for those that truly wnat to be Bounty Hunters.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#13 - 2017-04-11 07:34:26 UTC
Chance idea for randomization is not bad. It need to be polished.

What is engravered on bounty hunters badges? "Bail Enforcement Agent". They are not outlaws chasing other outlaws. So as Max Deveron wrote, license would be good start (with reasonable security status). If you commit act of crime you would lose a license and a bounty from the kill (gank proof).

The payout should include the cargo not only the hull and modules. So not a percentage of a kill but if bounty covers all ISK amount it will be paid.

It will be a good to increase minimal ISK amount to create bounty.

What if any violent act against neutral generate bounty (with few exceptions like war etc.). So lowering the security status loss but creating a ganker-bounty hunter relation.

Finally changing the bounty information displaying, can you imagine what would CCP Guard avatar picture looked like with a "bounty" on him? Big smile

Where are the weak points of above?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2017-04-11 07:48:38 UTC
In essence, everyone wants a system where people can get a killright added to their heads even if they have not done anything to legally (in terms of game mechanics) deserve this kill right? I can get a killright on my freighter for a bit of ISK without ever having killed anyone illegally just because someone wants to see my freighter dead? Those bounty ideas sure are super great.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#15 - 2017-04-11 07:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
Rivr Luzade wrote:
In essence, everyone wants a system where people can get a killright added to their heads even if they have not done anything to legally (in terms of game mechanics) deserve this kill right? I can get a killright on my freighter for a bit of ISK without ever having killed anyone illegally just because someone wants to see my freighter dead? Those bounty ideas sure are super great.



and that is the point, or one of them i was making.........

Who cares about your flipping freighter, maybe some one is just too much of an ass on the forums, maybe you found who the main of a ganker is, etc etc the list can go on.

But personally, screw your freighter, dont care about it, just the fact you got a bounty and someone killed you no matter what you were in is the point.

Also another thing with the new system, the wanted thing on characters should go away......only the Bounty Hunter with the contract should be able to see that or have access to the standings board of the bounty office where you see top 10 and so on.

Edit: Addition, lets say with what i wrote earlier, 500 million isk contract on you gets claimed while you were in a Ibis or something similiar......ok maybe the hunter waited till you were not in your freighter, how about that one?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2017-04-11 08:11:44 UTC
Why should someone be allowed to legally kill me ingame in high sec because I was a **** on the forum? That's a fundamentally broken system...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#17 - 2017-04-11 08:16:02 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Why should someone be allowed to legally kill me ingame in high sec because I was a **** on the forum? That's a fundamentally broken system...


Why should someone be legally able to wardec you because (highsec being the relevant place for this) because you (general term not personally you) were a **** on the forum?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2017-04-11 08:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Max Deveron wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Why should someone be allowed to legally kill me ingame in high sec because I was a **** on the forum? That's a fundamentally broken system...


Why should someone be legally able to wardec you because (highsec being the relevant place for this) because you (general term not personally you) were a **** on the forum?

Because wars serve a purpose to mutually attack someone/some group for 1 week, whereas this bounty system only serves the purpose of killing something that can't fight back for lols and to grab money. Fundamental difference.

With wars, you as attacker run the danger of your targets being better than you and counter-attack your infrastructure or gain allies in the fight. With the bounties, you run no risk at all when you attack your target. Risk of neutral logi? Don't attack. Risk of target switching ships? Don't attack. Risk of target being a competent alt? Don't attack. Etc. etc. The vast majority of targets are targets that do not pose any risk.

Also, Chance: The reason why bounties in the current system are so low is to facilitate everyone to bounty someone, 1 day newbs or 10 years veteran alike. Your system bars many people from participating, especially those enthusiastic new players who want to be Boba Fett or have a reason to give other Boba Fetts work.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#19 - 2017-04-11 08:51:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

........ whereas this bounty system only serves the purpose of killing something that can't fight back for lols and to grab money. Fundamental difference.



Uhm, that is what ganking does now, because seriously if you dont think CODE. didnt have mining fleets somewhere to churn out free catalysts when they started then i think you dont know what game your playing.

And what are you afraid of anyway? not being able to autopilot?

Seriously dude, if there was a little more danger on my npc mining alts and boosters i would be a little more careful with them, Wardecs do not affect my Corp in the slightest, because of NPC haulers and such....and that my friend is fundamentally broken.

Hmmm, come to think of it even a ship that can fight back can be ganked pretty easy, just Alpha Strike that scrap with some npc alts....Burn Jita also comes to mind here.......im pretty sure a lot of those ships were built, and if not they were purchased with ISK from the things they did build for that express purpose. Free ships, Free mods, equals easy effortless risk isk free kills.

Trying to build a useable profession here, and yes i think some if not many can say your concern is noted.....
But you are completely sidestepping the Random Generation thing, so yeah your concern is noted, but is most likely low or should be low on the list of concerns. So look at the bigger picture and quit trying to be Grumpy Bear or whatever that blue fluff stuff was called.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2017-04-11 09:34:19 UTC
Why aren't their bounty tiers like insurance.

I pay 1m for a small bounty.
10m for medium bounty, etc etc etc.
If someone has a bounty you can upgrade it for the appropriate cost. And each successive tier provides more incentives and lesser isk restrictions to hunt that person down.
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