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Easier way for logi to get on killmails

Author
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-04-07 23:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
Hey,

I noticed on the stream today that you mentioned for the anti-headshot-ships that you're aware that they want to get on killmails too. That's great, one of the cool things about eve is that your actions have permanent consequences and one of those is that you can track your progress on killboards.

Logi have a similar problem. I'm aware that you can't give them more slots or fitting room because that would simply be used for better tank / ECCM / more cap. So we use drones, which is fine for small fights.
In larger fights drones have a few disadvantages: The distances are bigger so the targets are often either outside of drone control range or the drones don't get there in time. Or they get smartbombed or die to PDS of a citadel.
So you can use sentry drones. The problem with those is that you often have to leave them behind and when you fight somewhere else you don't have any of them left, because only the Oneiros (and Exequror) has the room to carry two of them in its drone bay.

So my suggestion is to increase the drone bay on logistic ships (to maybe 100m³) and increase the drone control range (by 25km or so). Maybe reduce the damage and EWar effectiveness of the drones by 20% or so to compensate, if you're worried that the logistics ships get too much versatility with that. I'm not really worried about logistics drones, I don't see them used very often outside of the alliance tournament. (And if they have the time to travel 80km to a target that needs repairs then they're probably not needed that desperately anyway)
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#2 - 2017-04-08 01:11:44 UTC
Better alternative: stop obsessing over killboard stats. If you do this no balance changes are required.
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-04-08 01:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
What do you mean stop caring about stats? Are we playing the same game? One third of the dev blogs are just graph porn (which is great!)...

Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?
Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2017-04-08 02:41:43 UTC
Logi don't need massive drone bays, also you just need to assign your drones to a target and have them start to go for it to get on a KM. I don't believe they even need to actually shoot.

CCP have been tweaking around with ways to get Logi on KMs for years. This is a widely requested feature.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2017-04-08 08:49:38 UTC
Logi drones are powerful in small scale fights. An exec or scythe get an additional large repper from drones. Clearing them is significant (come on drone squads).

Logi on kill mails is nice, but not this way. Killboard stats aren't THAT important.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#6 - 2017-04-08 10:23:50 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
What do you mean stop caring about stats?


I mean stop caring about killboard stats. Stop posting kills, stop posting losses, stop paying attention to them. The game is a lot more fun when you don't have to obsessively worry about if jumping into a fight is going to hurt your K/D ratio.

Quote:
Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?


Then perhaps they'll have to find an alternative way to understand a player's value, which they should be doing anyway because killboard stats are an incomplete picture at best.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2017-04-08 14:41:54 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?

Stupid people do, yes.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#8 - 2017-04-08 22:10:44 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Logi drones are powerful in small scale fights. An exec or scythe get an additional large repper from drones. Clearing them is significant (come on drone squads).

Logi on kill mails is nice, but not this way. Killboard stats aren't THAT important.


Arguably but yea. If you want, I put the maximum remote repair values in a sheet-ish kind of style in my fitting guide in "Ships and Modules".

They have the maximum values of meta and t2 remote reps. Deadspace remote reps can rep more but they have much higher fitting requirements and cost a lot more, so I left them out.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#9 - 2017-04-08 23:16:27 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
What do you mean stop caring about stats? Are we playing the same game? One third of the dev blogs are just graph porn (which is great!)...

Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?


I play for fun, why do you play? Stats have nothing to do with it. IMO killboards should go away completely. All they do is keep risk averse people from yolo-ing into a fight they might lose (which are some of the best fights in the game)
Krysenth
Saints Of Havoc
Requiem Eternal
#10 - 2017-04-09 02:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Krysenth
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:

Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?

Most corps will almost zealously overlook a sparse KB record if it's shown that you have the skills, fits, and ability to fly logi. PVP corps hardly have a reason to say "no" to a logi pilot.


Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
What do you mean stop caring about stats? Are we playing the same game? One third of the dev blogs are just graph porn (which is great!)...

Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?


I play for fun, why do you play? Stats have nothing to do with it. IMO killboards should go away completely. All they do is keep risk averse people from yolo-ing into a fight they might lose (which are some of the best fights in the game)

It wouldnt even then. Some fights just arent fun even if you are the agressor (f*** you astero with half a mil in data site crap after I spent an hour chasing and scanning you down to kill you) or a defender. Especially if it over-escalates very quickly.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#11 - 2017-04-09 14:41:18 UTC
My opinion has long been that logi should show on killmails of friendlies. That means almost no mechanics changes are necessary and logi doens't need any sort of rebalancing - and rather than getting on red KMs, you show on blues. KMs would therefore not show as regular killmails on zKill and such probably but perhaps in another color (say, purple or something) indicating that you performed logistic support rather than applying damage to those friendly ships.

This would allow you to see really active logi pilots from their KB and distinguish them from people who are mostly flying DPS ships. It also means logi pilots can use logi drones, which is what you should be doing anyways rather than whoring on KMs with your drone bay.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2017-04-10 17:28:59 UTC
You know... we just did some pos bashing over the weekend, and my Basi most certainly did not get on the kill mails.

To those who say to stop caring about killboards because they aren't fun, I disagree. They aren't YOUR idea of fun. Eve is and always will be spreadsheets in space... combat stats are fun for me. I like to look at my killboard on a good day and give my head a nod of approval (or cringe when things go pear shaped).

I'm probably the only person who looks at my killboard save for someone running intel on me when they see me in local. It's not a manhood swinging contest, it's so that I can judge my level of performance and rate it by whatever ratings I wish. That is fun for me.

I may or may not start swapping out one of the reppers for a railgun lol. I'm sure my alliance will take note of it and yell at me eventually, especially if we whelp while I'm flying logi, but I do enjoy kill mails.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2017-04-10 19:52:33 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
What do you mean stop caring about stats? Are we playing the same game? One third of the dev blogs are just graph porn (which is great!)...

Also for recruitment people take killboard stats into account too, you know?


What kind of ****** ass NPC corp are you in to have your killboard looked at?

It's really easy. If you want to be on a killmail, cycle an offensive mod on the target ship before it explode. If you get purged off your corp for fitting guns or EWAR to your logi boat because you care so damn much about padding your killboard with meaningless kills, that your problem.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2017-04-10 19:55:00 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
You know... we just did some pos bashing over the weekend, and my Basi most certainly did not get on the kill mails.

To those who say to stop caring about killboards because they aren't fun, I disagree. They aren't YOUR idea of fun. Eve is and always will be spreadsheets in space... combat stats are fun for me. I like to look at my killboard on a good day and give my head a nod of approval (or cringe when things go pear shaped).

I'm probably the only person who looks at my killboard save for someone running intel on me when they see me in local. It's not a manhood swinging contest, it's so that I can judge my level of performance and rate it by whatever ratings I wish. That is fun for me.

I may or may not start swapping out one of the reppers for a railgun lol. I'm sure my alliance will take note of it and yell at me eventually, especially if we whelp while I'm flying logi, but I do enjoy kill mails.


How can you even tell if you are good at flying logi by being on killmails or not? That's not even remotely part of your job as a logi. If you want to be proud of your work as logi, check your fleet-mate killboard after an OP and see how many of them didn't get a red row added to their killboard.
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-04-10 22:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
So, let me recap the arguments a bit sarcastically so far and correct me if I'm wrong:

1.) If logi had more dronebay they'd be overpowered because repdrones, and you can see how everyone uses repdrones in the logi killmails. That is also why everyone is flying Oneiros, because they can field medium repdrones and the Guardian can only field small ones, so nobody uses Guardians.
2.) If logi appeared on the killboard then everyone would want to fly logi and that would be bad.
3.) If you look at killboards you are WRONG! They are not to be looked at! Shame!
4.) If you want a permanent proof / reminder, that you were in a certain battle you are wrong too.

That recruitment thing was just a wild guess tbh, I've been more or less flying with the same group of people since 2012, so I wouldn't know...
So instead, here's a real example of something we had a while ago in our corp: The player with the most kills in a month got a battlecruiser of their choice with a (reasonably inexpensive) fitting. We got rid of that because people wanted to fly logi even less then. And it would be way too tedious to count the kills a fleet got for every fleetop in a month, check who was flying logi there and add the kills they didn't get on to their numbers. And I am aware that one meager battlecruiser isn't much and people shouldn't worry about it so much but it was a fun contest. Sorry for having fun, it won't happen again. P

Another thing is... I get the vibe that you just don't want things to be changed, am I correct in that assumption?
Assuming that currently the game had logi with 50m³ drone bay and 80km drone control range and -20% drone damage and EWAR and someone suggested to remove that.. would you want that removed? Or would you be the guys shouting:
- "That's stupid, so in a 3way fight where your side currently isn't under attack, what would the logi do?"
- "There is no reason to remove that, let logi get on KMs if they want to"
- "There are ways to get rid of logi drones and if the logi are constantly busy recalling and redeploying drones they're probably not repping the primary"

Because so far you haven't given me many arguments against that change, you just argued against WANTING that change.
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-04-10 23:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Logi don't need massive drone bays, also you just need to assign your drones to a target and have them start to go for it to get on a KM. I don't believe they even need to actually shoot.

CCP have been tweaking around with ways to get Logi on KMs for years. This is a widely requested feature.



Uhm. Yes, well. That drone assist thing only works in nullsec, I think, if it even works there. I'm not sure. In lowsec it stopped working when they introduced the agression timers, weapon timers and all that. Also they do have to shoot the target (they don't have to hit but they have to activate their weapons), so they a) have to travel to it or b) be sentry drones. Same problems that I mentioned in the opening post.
Also the target has to be within 60km of yourself (the logi pilot) - I'm not sure if it also has to be within that range for the one they're assisting.
Outside of incursions assisting drones isn't really used anywhere in empire space, as far as I'm aware.

And the fact that this appears to be a widely requested feature actually agrees with my opinion more than it acts as a point against it.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#17 - 2017-04-10 23:27:32 UTC
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Uhm. Yes, well. That drone assist thing only works in nullsec, I think, if it even works there. I'm not sure. In lowsec it stopped working when they introduced the agression timers, weapon timers and all that. Also they do have to shoot the target (they don't have to hit but they have to activate their weapons), so they a) have to travel to it or b) be sentry drones. Same problems that I mentioned in the opening post.
Also the target has to be within 60km of yourself (the logi pilot) - I'm not sure if it also has to be within that range for the one they're assisting.
Outside of incursions assisting drones isn't really used anywhere in empire space, as far as I'm aware.

And the fact that this appears to be a widely requested feature actually agrees with my opinion more than it acts as a point against it.


Why do you care about killboards in the first place? What do they add to the game? Do they get you better fights?
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-04-10 23:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Uhm. Yes, well. That drone assist thing only works in nullsec, I think, if it even works there. I'm not sure. In lowsec it stopped working when they introduced the agression timers, weapon timers and all that. Also they do have to shoot the target (they don't have to hit but they have to activate their weapons), so they a) have to travel to it or b) be sentry drones. Same problems that I mentioned in the opening post.
Also the target has to be within 60km of yourself (the logi pilot) - I'm not sure if it also has to be within that range for the one they're assisting.
Outside of incursions assisting drones isn't really used anywhere in empire space, as far as I'm aware.

And the fact that this appears to be a widely requested feature actually agrees with my opinion more than it acts as a point against it.


Why do you care about killboards in the first place? What do they add to the game? Do they get you better fights?


Uhh.. yes? I think they do? What's the motivation of all those people flying a frigate to get a single shot on a titan or supercarrier in one of these "let's sacrifice a titan / super"-events? Why does "Nyx tackled" in the ping channel get so many more people logged in than "log in for POS repair"? The chance for an actual fight is probably higher on the second one, the first one usually just means that you log in, warp to the titan and get bridged and if you're too slow then it dies without you getting on the killmail.

Like I said in the opening post, the fact that your actions can be traced back to years later is one of the things that motivate people to play eve. It's not the only thing but it's one of the things.

Edit: But you're still only telling me that I shouldn't want that change, you're not telling me why that change shouldn't happen.

Another edit: I probably didn't get the point very well across, why I think killboards provide better fights. Yes, more frigates in a kill-our-titan-event doesn't really mean that the fight is better. I mean, there's more to shoot at so for some people it would be better.
The point is, more people get interested the higher the stakes are. If CCP removed the displayed value from the killmails again and there were no killboards to report the value (so basically, 2011 but without killboards), do you think journalists would sit down, count the ships killed, estimate their value, put the numbers together and report "$20.000 got destroyed in a virtual spacebattle!" in their gaming magazines? No it would be "there was a battle with 2000 players involved" and probably wouldn't even get reported. Less people would be interested in PvP and in the game itself and that definitely reduces the amount of good fights.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#19 - 2017-04-10 23:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Jakob Dabrowski wrote:
Uhh.. yes? I think they do? What's the motivation of all those people flying a frigate to get a single shot on a titan or supercarrier in one of these "let's sacrifice a titan / super"-events? Why does "Nyx tackled" in the ping channel get so many more people logged in than "log in for POS repair"? The chance for an actual fight is probably higher on the second one, the first one usually just means that you log in, warp to the titan and get bridged and if you're too slow then it dies without you getting on the killmail.

Like I said in the opening post, the fact that your actions can be traced back to years later is one of the things that motivate people to play eve. It's not the only thing but it's one of the things.

Edit: But you're still only telling me that I shouldn't want that change, you're not telling me why that change shouldn't happen.


Honestly, I don't know why people spend 40 minutes in a frigate to get a single shot on a titan. That's just sad. Killboards keep decent fights from happening, the game would be better without them.

So again, why do YOU care about killboards? How do they make for a more fun fight? They just lead to carebear alliances making rules that keep people from joining fights unless they know they can win. No thanks.

Either way, if you want to rely on killboards it looks like you've not been in a fight yet in EVE, so what do you know about them? (or you know, post with your main)
Jakob Dabrowski
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-04-11 00:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Dabrowski
Quote:
So instead, here's a real example of something we had a while ago in our corp: The player with the most kills in a month got a battlecruiser of their choice with a (reasonably inexpensive) fitting. We got rid of that because people wanted to fly logi even less then. And it would be way too tedious to count the kills a fleet got for every fleetop in a month, check who was flying logi there and add the kills they didn't get on to their numbers. And I am aware that one meager battlecruiser isn't much and people shouldn't worry about it so much but it was a fun contest. Sorry for having fun, it won't happen again. P


Above is an example how killboards provide fun.

Maybe I'll post with my main once you guys come up with a point why the change is bad and not why I shouldn't care about killboards. Fact is, people do. Deal with it. People also care about art or professional football teams, when there's no real reason to. I'd rather focus on the arguments about the proposed change than make this about who's on whose side.

Edit: Another way they provide fun is by having the kill reports after a fight and see how much got blown up. Or to determine which side actually won in terms of ISK destroyed. Even without killboards blueballing would still happen.

I know some hisec corps have a policy of "don't undock during a war" and stuff like that but so long as ingame war reports exist that attitude would stay, no matter if there's killboards or not. A highsec mining and industrial corp does not care about their killboard. They care about getting wardecced every other week because their members keep losing orcas. And everyone can see that when they right click the corp, show info, wars tab and just click on a few of them. (So the problem you describe isn't a result of the killboards but because of ingame mechanics.)
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