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What do suicide gankers consider a "worthy target?"

Author
Millaire Aubaris
Monaco Corporate Tax Shelter LLC
#1 - 2017-04-07 19:39:17 UTC
I plan to do some space trucking to earn a bit of cash, loading up a Nereus with whatever I can stuff into it and sell it at a profit in Jita. I am well aware of the reputation of the Uedama system, but a shipload of Acolyte and Warrior I's was apparently not enough to grab their attention.

At some point, I also intend to try doing some gas mining when the nerve/nest egg/replacement harvester fund gets ready. I'm pretty concerned that a Nereus full of Celadon Cytocerin would be worth a concordokken, so I'm given pause about trying. About what value does a suicide gank squad decide it's worth it to attack?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2 - 2017-04-07 20:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Default cargo on a bare Nereus is about 3000m^3 IIRC, at 80k and 10m^3 a pop 300x Celadon Cytoserocin gives a value of about 24M, not enough to get ganked over unless you do something silly like not fit it at all, fit it for max cargo, use autopilot or go AFK.

Personally I work on the basis of <3000 isk for every effective hit point. I'll haul up to 100M in hisec with the following fit.

The Luggage (Nereus)
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Inertial Stabilizers II (Swap for an Expanded Cargohold if you need a little more capacity)
Inertial Stabilizers II

Kinetic Deflection Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

3x Combat drones
3x ECM drones

Bear in mind my skills for it are all at level 4 or 5 which does affect the EHP, that I've been playing for years and know who the gankers are, and that the ship is omni tanked because I also use it in lowsec. For hisec gankers a kinetic and thermal tank is usually enough.

If you can't use the tech II modules play with the fit in a ship fitting tool like Osmium or Pyfa using tech I and meta modules, you should still be able to produce a fit that will tank a decent amount of damage while hauling your stuff.

The math for suicide ganking is based on concord response times, DPS capability, the EHP of the target and the value of the cargo and the average loot drop rate of 50%

Assuming a 0.5 systems (Concord response time 20 seconds), 600 DPS catalysts (@circa 10M each) and 45,000 EHP against the kinetic and thermal damage of blasters (what I get from the fit above) it would require 4 Catalysts to kill it.

The potential loot drop is 50M (with a 100M cargo), on average any gankers that kill it will net a 10M profit to share between them after covering their costs.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack

Anysense
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-04-07 21:19:29 UTC
I've never been attacked in high sec with cargo worth up to 200m. I doubt they will even bother to look at your fit unless you carry at least 500m. Still it's better to check Uedama in a capsule.
Flharfh Lhar
Star Explorers
Reckoning Star Alliance
#4 - 2017-04-07 22:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Flharfh Lhar
Also note that the calculus changes dramatically based on whether you are autopiloting or actively flying your ship.

It is quite difficult to gank someone warping directly from gate to gate, and the typical victim here is flying a large, slow ship like an Orca or freighter that can be bumped out of warp alignment while the gank squad is assembled. It's not impossible to gank an actively piloted smaller ship - gankers may use high alpha strike ships like thrashers or tornados to instakill high value, weak targets - but the point is that you can transport valuable cargo much more safely than autopiloting.

If you autopilot, however, you are a sitting duck. You should only autopilot if you have a low value cargo/fit or you have a heavily passive tanked ship. It doesn't make much sense to gank someone for a load of tritanium, or to go after a brick tanked ship with a moderate value cargo.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#5 - 2017-04-07 22:43:00 UTC
^^ Autopilot is a mechanism for seperating the wheat from the chaff

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack

Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
#6 - 2017-04-08 07:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
The above is all good advice and if you follow it the chance of losing your ship is very, very low, but sometimes you will be exploded for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sometimes the 'to gank or not' calculation is influenced by something other than pure profit. To mitigate this risk, always fly what you can afford to lose. Don't put the majority of your assets in a single ship, no matter how unprofitable or difficult you think it would be to gank.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2017-04-08 08:01:58 UTC
real gankers don't care about the value of the target

you're 'just' a target
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#8 - 2017-04-08 13:46:21 UTC
A target of opportunity.

@lunettelulu7

Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
#9 - 2017-04-08 17:02:20 UTC
You can do something a thousand times and get away with it, but then there's that but..., so 200 mil ISK is worth ganking you for if you trade a 15 mil gank spec catalyst for a good potential payout of what you invest in that 15 mil ship.

Your best bet is to learn how to run like your in null or low sec, fit a cloak and do the align, microwarp, and warp maneuver, fitting for pure cargo is a death sentence (pretty much unless you luck out), and so is tanking out an industrial, you won't survive in most cases.

Your best bet if you run solo is to keep the cargo haul at 30 mil or less but ideally about 15 mil, if everything dropped a ganker could only hope to break even with a 15 mil cargo.

If your are buying low and selling high then moving it to market then you are a day trader and not space trucking, I do buy and sell by moving around, but I move contracts from where I'm at, at that moment to the port where I'm going to sell, I pick up agent missions in between the moves, because if your moving empty your not making ISK, even a cheap player contract pays ISK and keeps your wheels making money.

Fit for aligning and speed, in other words nothing that compromises these things, also fit warp core stabilizers, for tank you can fit shield expanders as this makes you shield harder to shoot thru for an instant pop, your role ships (Gallente), really shine especially considering that if used for the role by moving what specialized cargo hold it has so you can move tidy sums of stuff and totally pimp out your ship to GTFO when it counts.

Tip: if you land on a gate and see baddies don't run, try to wait to see if something gets their attention, use your cloaked timer to your advantage, if you jump in and it's clear, keep moving, if your not there you can't be attacked.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Zulu People
#10 - 2017-04-08 17:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alasdan Helminthauge
Piugattuk wrote:
Your best bet if you run solo is to keep the cargo haul at 30 mil or less but ideally about 15 mil, if everything dropped a ganker could only hope to break even with a 15 mil cargo.


First, a ganking catalyst costs under 11 mil, not 15mil.
But can a catalyst really suicide-gank an industrial as long as it has tanks?
The main threats for the industrials should be tornadoes or taloses, and you should always try omni-tank because the tornado can select damage type.
Generally you shouldn't have 3k/ehp in your cargo-hold. Max-cargo fit Nereuses or even Iterons Mark V can also be ok as long as it follows this. And a scout ahead is also handy.
Last, never fly what you cannot to lose. Sometimes people don't gank for profits (or even an isk-positive kill), but just for fun or whatever mental satisfaction. (You see CODE throws 4 catalysts on a retriever?)
Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
#11 - 2017-04-08 20:25:18 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Your best bet if you run solo is to keep the cargo haul at 30 mil or less but ideally about 15 mil, if everything dropped a ganker could only hope to break even with a 15 mil cargo.


First, a ganking catalyst costs under 11 mil, not 15mil.
But can a catalyst really suicide-gank an industrial as long as it has tanks?
The main threats for the industrials should be tornadoes or taloses, and you should always try omni-tank because the tornado can select damage type.
Generally you shouldn't have 3k/ehp in your cargo-hold. Max-cargo fit Nereuses or even Iterons Mark V can also be ok as long as it follows this. And a scout ahead is also handy.
Last, never fly what you cannot to lose. Sometimes people don't gank for profits (or even an isk-positive kill), but just for fun or whatever mental satisfaction. (You see CODE throws 4 catalysts on a retriever?)



Well aware that people behave badly for lolz, but 15 mil is a good ceiling for t-1 industrial, if someone ganks for lolz then who cares about the reasons why, extra cargo is just icing.
Jacques d'Orleans
#12 - 2017-04-09 16:23:07 UTC
Millaire Aubaris wrote:
I plan to do some space trucking to earn a bit of cash, loading up a Nereus with whatever I can stuff into it and sell it at a profit in Jita. I am well aware of the reputation of the Uedama system, but a shipload of Acolyte and Warrior I's was apparently not enough to grab their attention.

At some point, I also intend to try doing some gas mining when the nerve/nest egg/replacement harvester fund gets ready. I'm pretty concerned that a Nereus full of Celadon Cytocerin would be worth a concordokken, so I'm given pause about trying. About what value does a suicide gank squad decide it's worth it to attack?


Use Scouts!

Never go afk!
If you have to take a dump or a pee, DOCK UP!
if your child is crying and you have to comfort it, then DOCK UP!
If you're Wife/Hubby/significant other is standing naked in the door, DOCK UP!
And if you don't listen and you have lost your ship, don't ya dare to come to the fourm to whine and ***** about it.
I'll personally will collect your tears and many others will do it too!

Never autopilot!
If you don't have the time to fly yourself, then don't do it!!
Same points as above! You'll get the message, I'm sure!

Put an appropriate fit on your ship!
NO, Cargo Hold Expanders are not a proper tank fit!

Take a look on the Star Map before starting your hauling run. Use the seting "Ship kills in the last hour".
If there are bigger orange or huge red circles around the Trade Hub, delay your hauling run.
Also highly advised to use: Dotlan
Have the "ususal" suspects set in your contacts list to red or orange, so that you can see them right away in local. Same goes for your Overview settings.

Be aligned to a celestial or a station when filling your hauler for other players (e.g hauling your Corp mates ores out of a belt)
Don't haul in Null or Low Sec before you have a proper understandig of the games mechanics.
After you have that knowledge, If you want to haul there, fit your ship accordingly!
Use Microwarpdrives to burn out of bubbles, use Warp Core Stabilizers and so on and so forth!
Again, Cargo Hold Expanders are not a proper tank fit for your hauler!

If your cargo is to expensive, haul it twice or more times!
Gankers don't kill for shitz and giggles, they do it for a living.
Try to understand how ganking works and then outsmart them.
Don't believe all those whiny morons out there, who tell you, that we're all sociopaths and so on, we know very well what we're doing.



AND PLEASE:
Never ever transport Plexes in your ship from or to a Trade Hub!
Not that I don't like those killmails, but please in the name of Bob, don't do it!
PLEASE!
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#13 - 2017-04-09 16:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Kitty Bear wrote:
real gankers don't care about the value of the target

you're 'just' a target

These people certainly exist but I do not agree with the sentiment. I have a lot more respect for the for-profit gankers than the for-lolz gankers. It's quite a bit more work. And the motive is more palatable.

To the OP: You can actually fit a pretty decent tank on a Nereus. Do some research on how to get the most HP out of it. People will have trouble ganking you on highsec gates because they won't be able to get through your HP before the gate guns rip them apart / concord arrives (source: have tried it).

That said, if you have a billion isk in your cargo, someone will find a way. I'd keep it under 100m as a rule of thumb (to previous poster...15m? seriously? lol)

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Jacques d'Orleans
#14 - 2017-04-09 16:39:26 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:

That said, if you have a billion isk in your cargo, someone will find a way. I'd keep it under 100m as a rule of thumb (to previous poster...15m? seriously? lol)


Never said anything about 15m. That was the guys post above me. CoolBlink
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#15 - 2017-04-09 16:49:46 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

That said, if you have a billion isk in your cargo, someone will find a way. I'd keep it under 100m as a rule of thumb (to previous poster...15m? seriously? lol)


Never said anything about 15m. That was the guys post above me. CoolBlink

Previous > existing or occurring before in time or order. Blink

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Sasha Nemtsov
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#16 - 2017-04-09 16:53:40 UTC
Never mind all that b******s; if you haven't got a Permit, you're fair game.
Jacques d'Orleans
#17 - 2017-04-09 23:25:09 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

That said, if you have a billion isk in your cargo, someone will find a way. I'd keep it under 100m as a rule of thumb (to previous poster...15m? seriously? lol)


Never said anything about 15m. That was the guys post above me. CoolBlink

Previous > existing or occurring before in time or order. Blink


Sorry, english isn't my first language, so I appologize for sometimes being a bit well...dense
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#18 - 2017-04-09 23:35:33 UTC
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

That said, if you have a billion isk in your cargo, someone will find a way. I'd keep it under 100m as a rule of thumb (to previous poster...15m? seriously? lol)


Never said anything about 15m. That was the guys post above me. CoolBlink

Previous > existing or occurring before in time or order. Blink


Sorry, english isn't my first language, so I appologize for sometimes being a bit well...dense

No worries! It can be interpreted either way.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#19 - 2017-04-10 11:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
How to get ganked while hauling:
- Too much ISK in cargo for not enough hit points fitted and doing a typical trade route at a popular time. (Best chances)
- Insane amounts of ISK in a bad fitted ship outside popular gaming times and on untypical route. (Less likely than the above but still pretty likely to happen because Murphy’s Law is strong in EVE.)
- Doing something stupid like auto-piloting, going suspect by looting yellow crates on the way, taking shortcuts through lowsec, hauling while wardecked etc. (More or less bound to happen sooner or later.)
- Very bad luck. The ganker is terribly bored and you are the only target available. (Didn’t happen do me yet and maybe it’s just a tale to frighten newbie haulers.)
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#20 - 2017-04-11 00:01:27 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
real gankers don't care about the value of the target

you're 'just' a target

value of the target is the only thing that matters. A vexor is a pretty commonly used gank ship and they aren't going to waste the sec loss, ship loss, and kill right generation on some cheap hauler. Most other gankers are going to be using something even more expensive.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

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