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Fixing Highsec Wardec Player Retention Issues
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Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#21 - 2017-04-06 09:18:00 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
I'm more of the opinion that there's a better solution.

Consider this.

The high sec deccers declare on some high sec corp. High sec corp hires mercs.

High sec corp then flies a brick tanked something through a known gate camp, waits for things to engage, then calls for a dozen of their merc friends to come from a jump out and wipe the floor with them.

Do that enough, and they'll probably move on to greener pastures.

Deccers get content, mercs get content, high sec corp gets content, and the industrialists get to sell more ships!

We do this to pirat,
pirat don't Dec us all that often anymore.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2017-04-06 10:30:18 UTC
Mercs are often as not the alts of the wardec corps, meaning you just gave them kills and isk at the same time. All part & parcel of EVE sure, but it also relies vastly on having the isk to drop on mercs who tend to demand enough to be worth them not ratting in null etc. And having the right schedule, and on the wardec corp taking the bait in the first place and not having a spy in your corp who knows the plan, or having eyes on the merc corp a jump out via their neutral scouts in the first place.
In short while a great tactic when it works, it's not a reliable one.

However while social corps (which when they were proposed still had the identical to NPC corps 11% tax to NPC's) are a good idea and should add to the game, not take away from the game they miss the core root of the issue.

The core issue is that High sec corps serve almost no purpose, and unless CCP close 90%+ of NPC stations to players will continue to serve no purpose. They could easily turn them into simple spawn points for all the NPC fleets that they are starting to bring in, move agents to the remaining stations and now you have large numbers of systems without a station. Which means that putting up your own structures in those systems and wardeccing any other corp which tries to claim them also starts to matter, and it becomes an expected thing for highsec corps to have to fight also. Especially since anyone who doesn't want structures or tax evasion can just go with a social corp instead if they are introduced.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2017-04-06 11:38:04 UTC
The first time i heard of corp lite/social corps was a few year ago, ive been pushing it ever since.

I think redoing corps is on ccp's redevelopment plan. I imagine/hope this will be done then. Couldn't come too soon.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#24 - 2017-04-06 12:55:42 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
@ the OP, if your newbies are dropping to NPC corps for the duration it might be worth putting some social structure in place to keep them engaged with the corp/alliance, a default chat room with a password for use in time of wardec, TS or Mumble for voice etc.

More of the this crazy stuff, players who are going to drop corp because they do not want to be in a war will drop corp and there is nothing you can do with the social aspect of the game that will stop them. Setting that aside why should they stay in a corp that is under war dec when they can drop to an NPC AND still have most if not all of the same social interactions they used to have?

Old Pervert wrote:
I'm more of the opinion that there's a better solution.

Consider this.

The high sec deccers declare on some high sec corp. High sec corp hires mercs.

High sec corp then flies a brick tanked something through a known gate camp, waits for things to engage, then calls for a dozen of their merc friends to come from a jump out and wipe the floor with them.

Do that enough, and they'll probably move on to greener pastures.

Deccers get content, mercs get content, high sec corp gets content, and the industrialists get to sell more ships!

Ah the usual fairy tale about hiring mercs and everyone rides happily off into the sunset. Granted there are some corps, even really small ones that are willing to pay whatever is asked to hire mercs. The simple reality is that hiring mercs is cost prohibitive and besides that why pay ISK when you can simply log off, drop corp or play out the dec with another character?

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
We do this to pirat,
pirat don't Dec us all that often anymore.

We can achieve the same thing by simply logging off for the week, or playing on alts in other corps and the beauty of our way is it cost us 0(zero) ISK. See war dec players for the most part are like children with ADD and they are easily bored into going away and leaving you alone, if not then you get the pleasure of watching them waste 50 plus million ISK every week deccing a corp who's members never log on.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
The first time i heard of corp lite/social corps was a few year ago, ive been pushing it ever since.

I think redoing corps is on ccp's redevelopment plan. I imagine/hope this will be done then. Couldn't come too soon.

I could not say it better so I will not even try.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#25 - 2017-04-06 13:02:06 UTC
The social corp or equivalent is such a no-brainer, I have no idea why it has not be implemented. Players are right to complain that they shouldn't have to open themselves up to wardecs to be part of an in-game social group. They are, of course, also wrong to complain that other players shouldn't be able to interact with them, or attack their in-space structures. A social corp though nicely uncouples these two things and allows players who want more safety, but less reward, to build a shared identity, while players who want to compete or have access to the benefits of being in a real corp like structure ownership can still do so.

A corporation revamp was on that roadmap that CCP Seagull keeps dragging out. Perhaps we will learn something more in a few hours when she gives us a much needed update on the development of the game: updates.eveonline.com has been bare for months.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
MyZhar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2017-04-06 14:52:44 UTC
If you do not like to be at war, then do not join a player corp.

If you want to hangout with friends then setup your own group,
Start a ingame chat hangout, it even has EVE-Voice.

This just friends thing is really simple.
Grim Pac Rian
Tech Knights
#27 - 2017-04-09 03:32:38 UTC
I agree the war dec mechanic needs to be revised. So you have a dispute and want to declare war, that's fine. The point of war is there is a conclusion. The game has made it such a way that there does not have to be interaction between the corps and there is perpetual war dec. I've seen more players leave eve because of the catered to war dec corps then I see actual gankers. It's the same corps, same pilots over and over. Essentially all they are doing is mining but with ship.

THE RATIO OF TRAINING QUE FOR FULL TIME MINER V PART TIME GANKER IS SERIOUSLY ONE SIDED. A miner has to do way over the amount of skills to be able to resist the ganker then the ganker has to do. What's the reward? Rorqual rebalances structure bonuses for null low and WH. Which brought down prices significantly and possibly more drops in prices to come. I mean someone can sit in a carrier and eat make 100-200 million or more ratting. But I got to choke a chicken in order to make 10-25 million in an hour.


I could go on forever
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#28 - 2017-04-09 04:30:17 UTC
Grim Pac Rian wrote:
A miner has to do way over the amount of skills to be able to resist the ganker then the ganker has to do.


Not true at all. The miner has to invest effort in being aware of their surroundings, avoiding popular gank spots, etc. A low-skill miner can mine in relative safety as long as they aren't careless.
GoodGreyer Ayderan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2017-04-09 07:03:49 UTC
MyZhar wrote:
If you do not like to be at war, then do not join a player corp.

If you want to hangout with friends then setup your own group,
Start a ingame chat hangout, it even has EVE-Voice.

This just friends thing is really simple.


Roll
Grim Pac Rian
Tech Knights
#30 - 2017-04-09 08:38:29 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Grim Pac Rian wrote:
A miner has to do way over the amount of skills to be able to resist the ganker then the ganker has to do.


Not true at all. The miner has to invest effort in being aware of their surroundings, avoiding popular gank spots, etc. A low-skill miner can mine in relative safety as long as they aren't careless.

I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Create a mining corp by yourself and grow it to over 500 players I'll give you two years. Btw you can't quit the game either.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#31 - 2017-04-09 09:06:57 UTC
What has that got to do with skill training grim? And what does ganking have to do with this thread? You're all over the place!

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Grim Pac Rian
Tech Knights
#32 - 2017-04-09 09:44:10 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
What has that got to do with skill training grim? And what does ganking have to do with this thread? You're all over the place!



It has everything to do with it. The imbalances creates a ripple effect. Goes through and touches all those points I covered. Someone who has not ran a mining corp doesn't need to be commenting on what they don't know about here or what your not trained in. Running a Corp is a unqueable skill. You learn over time.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#33 - 2017-04-09 10:08:10 UTC
Grim Pac Rian wrote:
Running a Corp is a unqueable skill.


What does that have to do with anything? You claimed that "a miner has to do way over the amount of skills to be able to resist the ganker then the ganker has to do", and that's what I was responding to. That has nothing to do with how much leadership skill is required to run a successful 500-man corp.

And no, I'm not going to create a mining corp to prove anything to you. I'd rather stab myself in the face IRL than suffer through anything related to mining.
Renee Frost
Sarah's Covenant
#34 - 2017-04-09 15:23:37 UTC
MyZhar wrote:
If you do not like to be at war, then do not join a player corp.

If you want to hangout with friends then setup your own group,
Start a ingame chat hangout, it even has EVE-Voice.

This just friends thing is really simple.


Absolutely not that simple. From my personal experience, there are at least two scenarios that make things more complicated.

1) New players wanting to make new friends in EVE.

They are new. They don't know anything. They're not going to be able to set up in-game chat hangout and recruit people. They need people introducing them to the game.

2) Players who put in effort to help new players in scenario 1 above.

There are absolute gems in EVE who go out of their way to set up newbie corps and guide new players. I feels like a complete waste when their corp disband and newbies stop logging in due to war decs.

I have seen many newbies transit from highsec carebearing to low/null sec activities. They just need time and guidance. I am one of them! After 3 months of high sec carebearing I now have an Omega clone that operates in low/null sec and I enjoy it.

Sure, EVE could be a game that requires players to be comfortable with war decs and PvP right away on day 1. But if there is a simple social copr system that could get more players to play EVE, more subscriptions for CCP, and eventually more low/null sec content for us all, why not?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#35 - 2017-04-09 19:03:00 UTC
It does because it does? Cheers grim. Great input. Now if we could just stop trying to derail the thread...that'd be awesome.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2017-04-10 00:17:14 UTC
Renee Frost wrote:
Let me state upfront that I believe suicide ganking and highsec wardecs are an important part of EVE Online. The element of danger, even in "safe" highsec space, gives weight and meaning to resources.

I started playing 2.5 months ago, and stuck to high sec until moving to low sec recently. Even during my time in highsec, the exhilaration of hauling 200+ million ISK through ganker systems, and evading gate camps during a war dec was what drove me to upgrade from Alpha to Omega. IMHO "even highsec is not safe" is a vital aspect of EVE that should never be changed. That being said, I believe that high sec wardecs might have an impact on player retention, based on personal experience and other threads on this forum.

I have an alt in an alliance that gets wardecced semi-frequently by alliances that are larger, have much higher skillpoints and much more expensive ships. So there is no easy way to fight back. And when we try to fight back, the wardec often gets renewed as PvP action is what they are looking for. That being said, I'm a seasoned gamer and so had no problem staying alive through the war. Likewise for many of my alliance mates, especially those in my corp, which often operates in low sec.

The people who suffers the most are the new players in our alliance, especially those in non-PvP corps (mining, industry etc). I have seen some these corps fall apart, and new players leave because wardecs are essentially turning high sec into low/null sec. This appears to be a common trend in threads complaining about high sec wardecs.

I believe that being in a corp, socializing and getting guidance from other players plays a big factor in getting players to stay/subscribe. These non-PvP corps in my alliance are contributing a lot by putting in the time and effort to recruit and guide new players. It feels like a huge missed opportunity when they fall apart due to wardecs.

CCP's official stance is to stay in NPC corps to avoid war decs: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits. Unfortunately, staying in an NPC corp means that new players will not be able to take part in the social aspects of EVE. This does not feel like a good way to retain players. It feels like there is a step missing between NPC corps and wardec vulnerable player corps.

I'll leave it to the professional game developers at CCP to figure out if this is an issue and how to fix it. But off the top of my head (not fully thought out at all), a possible way to do this might be to allow players that are less than X months old or have less than X skillpoints to join a corp as a "probationary" member that is not a valid war target but has severely restricted privileges to prevent abuse. Or even allow a corp type, that are highly restricted, between NPC and full blown player corps. These will give new players access to social tools without needing to take part in the wardec system, and at the same time not allow them to enjoy the benefits of a corp without risk.


Might I suggest you consider that you are only seeing those that complain. Corporations that manage to survive a war dec are unlikely to come post here on the forums. As such you could very well be getting a biased sample.

And what Jonah wrote....try that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-04-10 18:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Old Pervert wrote:
I'm more of the opinion that there's a better solution.

Consider this.

The high sec deccers declare on some high sec corp. High sec corp hires mercs.

High sec corp then flies a brick tanked something through a known gate camp, waits for things to engage, then calls for a dozen of their merc friends to come from a jump out and wipe the floor with them.

Do that enough, and they'll probably move on to greener pastures.

Deccers get content, mercs get content, high sec corp gets content, and the industrialists get to sell more ships!



Nope, many have tried it and the wardeccers simply hide in station. They do not want fights, they want kills.

The wardec system is so irretrievably broken the only sensible way is to nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure ™

Forget social corporations, fiddling with cost or duration, or setting goals, get rid of the problem, totally.


CCP Once that is done sort out what you actually want to achieve and start from a clean slate.
Stella Southstar
The Order of Merlin
Scumlords
#38 - 2017-04-26 18:46:43 UTC
I think the issue is not so much a once off wardeck, those create enough action to make hisec interesting. It's continual wd that spoil the fun. This can be simply fixed with a hyper escalating price of the cost of a wd. Wd a corp first time will cost you 500 mil renew the wd cost you 1bil renew again it'll cost you 10bil...

So two things

1) The base price of 50 mil is way to low... increase it 10 fold.
2) Renewing wd costs exponentially more

Think this will solve most issues.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#39 - 2017-04-26 20:16:50 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
I'm more of the opinion that there's a better solution.

Consider this.

The high sec deccers declare on some high sec corp. High sec corp hires mercs.

High sec corp then flies a brick tanked something through a known gate camp, waits for things to engage, then calls for a dozen of their merc friends to come from a jump out and wipe the floor with them.

Do that enough, and they'll probably move on to greener pastures.

Deccers get content, mercs get content, high sec corp gets content, and the industrialists get to sell more ships!



Mercs won't fight mercs that often anymore. They are either friends or worried about losses (both in the way of KB stats and retention of their 'softer' members that aren't good at losing ships).


Here's an exercise I would like you to try. Use a throw away character to get a price quote from the top 5-10 merc outfits to war dec a 100 man corp. Use another throw away character and get a price quote to have the top merc corps dec other top merc corps. The price difference in some cases and outright refusal to dec other mercs in some other cases might clear things up for you.

I'm not judging or proclaiming it's good or bad. I'm just saying your idea sounds good on the forums, but isn't practical in the game. You're better off baiting them yourself and wonking them. A great trick is to scan down a wh and hide your folks just inside it. Put some bling in the HS system connected to the wh. When they show up - WONK. It takes very little prep and/or skill to pull this off. Once you wonk them - disappear for a day or so, then rinse and repeat. (protip - NEVER do this on a gate or station - get them where they can't de-agro and escape)

They just aren't equipped to deal with 'wh surprise'. They process too many players to take the time to scan down and scout WH prior to engaging. I've considered a mini profession of rolling up noobs, joining HS corps under duress and FC that wh surprise wonking over and over again - laziness is my undoing (again and again and again).
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-04-27 11:03:50 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
...laziness is my undoing (again and again and again).


laziness is a skill in itself. not one that can be taught though for obvious reasons...
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