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Have Multiboxers and Botting ruined Eve Online?

Author
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#101 - 2017-03-27 17:28:18 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
I think part of the reason you won't find any solutions to your problem is that multiboxing is only really considered a problem in High sec.

The rest of us either don't care, also multi-box, or see that the benefits outweigh the downsides.

Wormhole life beyond basic daytripping activities would be annoying/difficult if done truly solo. Many activities in Null scale well to having a second account (extra PI, manufacturing/science, scouts, cyno alts, Black Ops hot dropping, etc.) I can't speak to low sec, but I imagine its similar to null.

The only place I can think of where multiboxing is considered bad are those big skiff fleets in the high sec ice belts. Are there other situations?


That's because the people who typically live in high sec are closer to wow players than they are actual EVE players in mentality. They literally run from any fight, get mad when they're forced into one, and ***** when someone has an advantage over them because they personally refuse to use the same tools available to them because it doesn't fit their playstyle (solo vs multibox mining, missions vs ratting, etc).

Just ignore them and move along until they finally move to WH/null as they were intended and realize how much time they've been wasting collecting pennies in HS. Single client or multiple, these areas of space will net them multiple times more than they ever could in HS outside of incursions. But since this complaint stems from mining...

Just saying folks, expand your horizons, stop looking at a single income source for one (only mining), and stop trying to live years within HS space. You don't realize just how much time and effort you're putting to waste there.



You seem to have some valid points in your post, no need for the underlying arrogant attitude to put it across, but that is a whole othe issue.


With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.
Many players will take soft targets just because there is less resistance, not because they want a "fair fight".

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.
But, when they encounter these large multiboxing bot fleets, this is an issue that does not really tie In to game mechanics. It is a. "Outside" obstacle that they find a game breaker.

How many other MMOs out there are plaged by this issue as well?

This is a real issue facing Eve and not just Eve.

To reiterate, I am not against some one running a couple three accounts at once; for me it's the Large and the Massive multibox fleets that are becoming the norm.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#102 - 2017-03-27 18:18:42 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:


With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.


This is wrong now, and it's always been wrong. I was told the exact same thing in 2007 in the 1st player corp I was in.. "There are people playing that were here during the beta, you better not leave high security space until you get x amount of skill point". I wasted a YEAR + in high sec until Faction Warfare was introduced and I met players that didn't suck.

Many groups take players right out of high sec as they are 'born' , throw them some isk and a quick start like skil plan, and take them out to null. Notice you don't see people like that complaining on the forums (they are too damn busy having fun). Back then it was EVe uni and Agony and Goons, later it was Brave Newbies , Pandemic Horde and others.

It's utter nonsense to say you have to stay in high sec. It's excuse making of the absolute worst kind. The only place people should advise caution is wormhole space because those mechaaincs take some getting used to.

Quote:

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.
But, when they encounter these large multiboxing bot fleets, this is an issue that does not really tie In to game mechanics. It is a. "Outside" obstacle that they find a game breaker.

How many other MMOs out there are plaged by this issue as well?

This is a real issue facing Eve and not just Eve.

To reiterate, I am not against some one running a couple three accounts at once; for me it's the Large and the Massive multibox fleets that are becoming the norm.


You are pretending that this thing that you (personally) don't like is a wider general problem. It is not, it's simply your personal dislike. made worse by your "but I have to stay in high sec" excuse making.

And don't think I didn't notice your little implication that I must be some hugh multiboxer. I sometimes use 3 characters to farm anomalies in high sec, or 2 to run missions, but that's it. I'd lose my mind trying to control any more characters than that.



My motivation for replying in this awful thread is my distaste for excuse makers who post threads with titles that appear to be asking a question when they are actually making a statement. I wonder if that is some kind of new Millennial thing or something, why wasn't it "I think Multiboxing is killing the game" instead of a fake and annoying question?
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#103 - 2017-03-27 18:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Trebon Luap wrote:
With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.
Many players will take soft targets just because there is less resistance, not because they want a "fair fight".

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.
But, when they encounter these large multiboxing bot fleets, this is an issue that does not really tie In to game mechanics. It is a. "Outside" obstacle that they find a game breaker.

How many other MMOs out there are plaged by this issue as well?

This is a real issue facing Eve and not just Eve.


This is a very common misconception which only works to bind new players to high sec under that belief. But it is entirely wrong. You do not need to be able to fly a cap to make it in null. A single newbro in a VNI can net ~20m every wallet tick (20 minutes) and that doesn't even take 2 million sp. That alone is typically more than most miners will see in HS space and takes significantly less time and effort to reach the same goals, leaving time to actually play the game.

I suggest anyone looking to venture out of high sec actually take the time to do a little digging.There are many others, but here in TEST we have the corp Brand Newbros who welcomes nearly any player into their fold. They have many very low SP pilots by today's "standards" as you put it who play, make isk, and have fun doing it entirely in null. Corps who have a more veteran roster are still more than willing to lend a hand to those in need and give advise when asked.



Look, I get that I look down on those within HS space. But that's because no matter how many times you show them facts that they are spinning their wheels for nothing rather than venturing out and exploring the game outside of their safe space they refuse to accept it. The vast majority are stubborn and refuse to accept that these old rumors are simply not true. SP barriers exist only to those who feel they must fly a capital to be relevant. I hate to tell you guys this, but 1 griffin can bring a carrier to it's knees in this game. And 2 ishtars can make as much as a single carrier ratting with lower risk and less required attention. Again, stop comparing yourself to others by total SP, and start looking at where that SP is placed and what your focus is. Take a risk and play the game. Stop telling yourselves you're not good enough to compete!
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#104 - 2017-03-27 18:27:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.


This is wrong now, and it's always been wrong. I was told the exact same thing in 2007 in the 1st player corp I was in.. "There are people playing that were here during the beta, you better not leave high security space until you get x amount of skill point". I wasted a YEAR + in high sec until Faction Warfare was introduced and I met players that didn't suck.

Many groups take players right out of high sec as they are 'born' , throw them some isk and a quick start like skil plan, and take them out to null. Notice you don't see people like that complaining on the forums (they are too damn busy having fun). Back then it was EVe uni and Agony and Goons, later it was Brave Newbies , Pandemic Horde and others.

It's utter nonsense to say you have to stay in high sec. It's excuse making of the absolute worst kind. The only place people should advise caution is wormhole space because those mechaaincs take some getting used to.

Quote:

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.
But, when they encounter these large multiboxing bot fleets, this is an issue that does not really tie In to game mechanics. It is a. "Outside" obstacle that they find a game breaker.

How many other MMOs out there are plaged by this issue as well?

This is a real issue facing Eve and not just Eve.

To reiterate, I am not against some one running a couple three accounts at once; for me it's the Large and the Massive multibox fleets that are becoming the norm.


You are pretending that this thing that you (personally) don't like is a wider general problem. It is not, it's simply your personal dislike. made worse by your "but I have to stay in high sec" excuse making.

And don't think I didn't notice your little implication that I must be some hugh multiboxer. I sometimes use 3 characters to farm anomalies in high sec, or 2 to run missions, but that's it. I'd lose my mind trying to control any more characters than that.



My motivation for replying in this awful thread is my distaste for excuse makers who post threads with titles that appear to be asking a question when they are actually making a statement. I wonder if that is some kind of new Millennial thing or something, why wasn't it "I think Multiboxing is killing the game" instead of a fake and annoying question?





You don't seem to look past the end of your own nose. Eve revoles around a central point, but I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but that point is not you.

Your screen must have fantastic resolution because you seem to be reading things between the lines that I cannot see.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#105 - 2017-03-27 18:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebon Luap
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:
With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.
Many players will take soft targets just because there is less resistance, not because they want a "fair fight".

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.
But, when they encounter these large multiboxing bot fleets, this is an issue that does not really tie In to game mechanics. It is a. "Outside" obstacle that they find a game breaker.

How many other MMOs out there are plaged by this issue as well?

This is a real issue facing Eve and not just Eve.


This is a very common misconception which only works to bind new players to high sec under that belief. But it is entirely wrong. You do not need to be able to fly a cap to make it in null. A single newbro in a VNI can net ~20m every wallet tick (20 minutes) and that doesn't even take 2 million sp. That alone is typically more than most miners will see in HS space and takes significantly less time and effort to reach the same goals, leaving time to actually play the game.

I suggest anyone looking to venture out of high sec actually take the time to do a little digging.There are many others, but here in TEST we have the corp Brand Newbros who welcomes nearly any player into their fold. They have many very low SP pilots by today's "standards" as you put it who play, make isk, and have fun doing it entirely in null. Corps who have a more veteran roster are still more than willing to lend a hand to those in need and give advise when asked.



Look, I get that I look down on those within HS space. But that's because no matter how many times you show them facts that they are spinning their wheels for nothing rather than venturing out and exploring the game outside of their safe space they refuse to accept it. The vast majority are stubborn and refuse to accept that these old rumors are simply not true. SP barriers exist only to those who feel they must fly a capital to be relevant. I hate to tell you guys this, but 1 griffin can bring a carrier to it's knees in this game. And 2 ishtars can make as much as a single carrier ratting with lower risk and less required attention. Again, stop comparing yourself to others by total SP, and start looking at where that SP is placed and what your focus is. Take a risk and play the game. Stop telling yourselves you're not good enough to compete!



You make some sense here and as hard as that was for me to say..... Thanks for some valuable advice.
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#106 - 2017-03-27 18:41:25 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:

With Eve being as long lived as it is, a player needs to spend more time in H.S.than they used to for the simple fact that the player base in low and nul sec have been around for so long and have more skill points trained up.
So a person needs to be viable before they enter those regens. Why would some go there just so they can be cannon fodder for a player with way more time and skill.
Many players will take soft targets just because there is less resistance, not because they want a "fair fight".

So people will spend more time in H.S.building up some isk and skill points before they venture forth.


Some of what you say is undoubtedly true (or large elements of it) despite what some of the trolls are saying.
Clockwork Robot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#107 - 2017-03-27 18:44:22 UTC
RUIN'T!
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
#108 - 2017-03-27 19:53:32 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
I think part of the reason you won't find any solutions to your problem is that multiboxing is only really considered a problem in High sec.

The rest of us either don't care, also multi-box, or see that the benefits outweigh the downsides.

Wormhole life beyond basic daytripping activities would be annoying/difficult if done truly solo. Many activities in Null scale well to having a second account (extra PI, manufacturing/science, scouts, cyno alts, Black Ops hot dropping, etc.) I can't speak to low sec, but I imagine its similar to null.

The only place I can think of where multiboxing is considered bad are those big skiff fleets in the high sec ice belts. Are there other situations?


That's because the people who typically live in high sec are closer to wow players than they are actual EVE players in mentality. They literally run from any fight, get mad when they're forced into one, and ***** when someone has an advantage over them because they personally refuse to use the same tools available to them because it doesn't fit their playstyle (solo vs multibox mining, missions vs ratting, etc).

Just ignore them and move along until they finally move to WH/null as they were intended and realize how much time they've been wasting collecting pennies in HS. Single client or multiple, these areas of space will net them multiple times more than they ever could in HS outside of incursions. But since this complaint stems from mining...

Just saying folks, expand your horizons, stop looking at a single income source for one (only mining), and stop trying to live years within HS space. You don't realize just how much time and effort you're putting to waste there.


Really though, a wow pvper is hell of a lot better then the eve bunnies with multiple accounts, the fights with (insert your number of players here) vs 1 and many other unfortunates who wouldn't be able to hack it on equal ground. Eves pvp is an abstraction of pvp, not quite individually skill intensive, but just takes a bit of knowledge. After that it's just a mess of design and basic mechanic choices. So some simply dont find it challenging or dislike the fundamental design. Hence they will stay in High sec avoiding the whole mess. Besides the convoluted pvp system Null just seems pointless unless you enjoy being in a corp that takes itself to seriously. I'm just paying to play a video game here, it's not really a social outlet for me as I have social outlets in life up to my ears. So yea my horizons are expended, but they dont include what I consider badly designed parts of this game. Glad you enjoy what you do, but really dont push it on others, I dont mine either but if they like it, ya know, whatever your into.
Kaybella Hakaari
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2017-03-27 20:09:28 UTC
Ded Akara wrote:
There are ways to deal with large multibox fleets, even in hi-sec. It's not jjust a case of 'if you can't beat em, join em' - there are ways to get rid of them too.

If these fleets are such a problem for you, then why don't you use the tools available to get rid of them? Bumping is dead easy, and fielding a fleet of gankers is a good method to drive them away, too. While these tactics won't work 100% of the time on the best players, they are very effective tactics against many of them.

If you can't be bothered to do what it takes to counter them, then you're clearly not that bothered by them, or you're just not that invested into the game anyway.

Eight words:

Wardec Immune Brick Tanked Procurers + Shield Command Burst.
Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#110 - 2017-03-27 21:07:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The only place people should advise caution is wormhole space because those mechaaincs take some getting used to.


Caution yes, and back when there when scanning was MUCH more difficult than it is today, there was some merit to the "don't go into wormholes until you know how to scan really well" argument.

but these days scanning is easier than ever, and even a brand new day 1 player has the skills necessary to scan their way into, and back out of just about any WH even without training anything extra.

might not be the brightest of ideas, but there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing it. and even doing it successfully.
Salvos Rhoska
#111 - 2017-03-27 22:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
scanning is easier than ever


No offense Ivy League Uni boy.

But its not scanning, its probing.

Scanning is what you do with D-scan (or cargo/fit/asteroid scan with module)
Probing is what you do with probes.

You cant scan your way out of a WH.
Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#112 - 2017-03-28 00:54:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
scanning is easier than ever


No offense Ivy League Uni boy.

But its not scanning, its probing.

Scanning is what you do with D-scan (or cargo/fit/asteroid scan with module)
Probing is what you do with probes.

You cant scan your way out of a WH.


What is the name of the category that the probing skills fall under called again? Oh right they are scanning skills

Is the interface called the "prober" nah. It's the "probe scanner" and "directional scan"

Remember back when to find anoms you needed to warp to a planet and use your d-scan? Cuz I do.

Not everyone uses the same terminology. But I have never heard anyone, wormhole corp or not. Call it "probing".

But I guess it's to be expected from someone in an NPC corp with a grand total of 3 ship losses and zero kills be the grand authority on such things.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#113 - 2017-03-28 01:50:37 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:
I admit that most of my experiences have been in High Sec. Space.( Mining) Not all of it, but most of it.

Get out of hisec. In nulsec, botting is meaningless.
Salvos Rhoska
#114 - 2017-03-28 09:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
scanning is easier than ever


No offense Ivy League Uni boy.

But its not scanning, its probing.

Scanning is what you do with D-scan (or cargo/fit/asteroid scan with module)
Probing is what you do with probes.

You cant scan your way out of a WH.


What is the name of the category that the probing skills fall under called again? Oh right they are scanning skills

Is the interface called the "prober" nah. It's the "probe scanner" and "directional scan"

Remember back when to find anoms you needed to warp to a planet and use your d-scan? Cuz I do.

Not everyone uses the same terminology. But I have never heard anyone, wormhole corp or not. Call it "probing".

But I guess it's to be expected from someone in an NPC corp with a grand total of 3 ship losses and zero kills be the grand authority on such things.


The scanning skill list category title is arbitrary, not definitive.
CCP could make a new category for probing tomorrow, and it would not overlap with scanning at all.
They are completely unrelated skill trees.

You scan fits, cargo and rocks, some PI aspects and with d-scan.

Probing involves a completely different process/minigame and skill set, for entirely different purposes.

They are not mutually interchangeable, either as terms or actual ingame actions.

You cant scan down a WH. You can only find it by probing.
If you dont have probes, you are SOL.

Probing introduces a separate entity into the game (a probe), that then performs a scan.
You arent the one scanning from your ship, the probe is the entity doing the scanning.
The interface is called a probe scanner, cos its scans run by the probe.

As an example from Trek:
-When you cant scan something, you send a probe which does the scanning for you.
-Scanning=/=Probing

PS: How does it feel to be rekt by "someone in an NPC corp with a grand total of 3 ship losses and zero kills"?
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#115 - 2017-03-28 12:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
Trebon Luap wrote:

Every new player to Eve starts in Highsec. When new players come up against tbis wall they become disenchanted with Eve at a critical point in their Eve careers. This affects many new players and they leave. I know some of the long time players scoff at thins Iidea simply because they can't remember way-back when they were first starting out. The game was way different back then. There where not as many of these fleets when they where making their way through Eve.


I started exactly 8 month ago and went into the first wormhole after a few days. Only thing you can do in Highsec is some PVE, trading, invention and prduction IMHO.. for everything else (PVP, mining, ratting, exporation) HighSec is just a starter area.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#116 - 2017-03-28 13:29:42 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:
I admit that most of my experiences have been in High Sec. Space.( Mining) Not all of it, but most of it.

Get out of hisec. In nulsec, botting is meaningless.



I undrstand what you and others are saying here, all this does is circumvent the Issue.

Do people really belive that if you look the other way, issues disappear? Well , I guest, for them it does.
Zanar Skwigelf
Wormhoppers Inc.
#117 - 2017-03-28 14:17:07 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:

Do people really belive that if you look the other way, issues disappear? Well , I guest, for them it does.


Honestly it kind of does.

As an example, lets use the watchlist changes, which removed the ability to see if people were online unless they gave you permission to see that. The change was made because it allowed people in null sec to log in their super carriers and titans without alerting the rest of EVE, but had the side effect of high sec merc groups losing the ability to find war targets away from hubs.

For people in null sec, the collateral damage to high sec wars is minimal because a lot of us use an out of corp character to do our hauling (or use corp / alliance jump freighter, or pay black frog, etc.)

Honestly, it made high sec travel even easier, since I know that the groups that war dec us will stay close to the hubs, so as long as I don't get within 5 jumps of a hub I'm 99% safe on this character (from war targets).


To use a different example that is closer to you: how did alpha's getting introduced and their impact on faction warfare change the way you play the game in high sec?
Salvos Rhoska
#118 - 2017-03-28 14:22:50 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:

Do people really belive that if you look the other way, issues disappear? Well , I guest, for them it does.


Honestly it kind of does.

As an example, lets use the watchlist changes, which removed the ability to see if people were online unless they gave you permission to see that. The change was made because it allowed people in null sec to log in their super carriers and titans without alerting the rest of EVE, but had the side effect of high sec merc groups losing the ability to find war targets away from hubs.

For people in null sec, the collateral damage to high sec wars is minimal because a lot of us use an out of corp character to do our hauling (or use corp / alliance jump freighter, or pay black frog, etc.)

Honestly, it made high sec travel even easier, since I know that the groups that war dec us will stay close to the hubs, so as long as I don't get within 5 jumps of a hub I'm 99% safe on this character (from war targets).


To use a different example that is closer to you: how did alpha's getting introduced and their impact on faction warfare change the way you play the game in high sec?


Never ceases to amaze me how smart many EVE players are.

Excellent post.
Lara Agnon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2017-03-28 17:17:49 UTC
Trebon, what is (was) your playstyle? Enter an Ice belt in your Orca, target the 150 piece rock, send your drone on it, and finally go to work? After work you fly back enjoying the 150 pieces of ice that were mined while you were afk?

Your post sounds just like that. And if there are only 10 pieces inside your ore hold you start mimimi and blame the guy who targeted and mined "your" rock.

Eve is not like that, Eve is competitive so you have to defend your rock. Either kill the mining fleet that annoys you or just log on your favorite machariel alt and bump the bot fleet into oblivion. There is always a way to go in Eve, even in highsec. Of course, if the bot is not a bot but a player he might get mad at you and you'll gonna suffer.

If you played alone in Eve you might not know that mining corps in highsec do have pvp squads and ganking squads to get rid of competitors in "their" highsec mining system.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#120 - 2017-03-28 18:52:39 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:

Do people really belive that if you look the other way, issues disappear? Well , I guest, for them it does.


Honestly it kind of does.

As an example, lets use the watchlist changes, which removed the ability to see if people were online unless they gave you permission to see that. The change was made because it allowed people in null sec to log in their super carriers and titans without alerting the rest of EVE, but had the side effect of high sec merc groups losing the ability to find war targets away from hubs.

For people in null sec, the collateral damage to high sec wars is minimal because a lot of us use an out of corp character to do our hauling (or use corp / alliance jump freighter, or pay black frog, etc.)

Honestly, it made high sec travel even easier, since I know that the groups that war dec us will stay close to the hubs, so as long as I don't get within 5 jumps of a hub I'm 99% safe on this character (from war targets).


To use a different example that is closer to you: how did alpha's getting introduced and their impact on faction warfare change the way you play the game in high sec?



So if I understand what you are saying inyour post is that there are a number of issues people can have with Eve in different areas and regarding different topics and the only way others, not directly affectedd by certain issuers, is hear crom other players that have been affected.

We all cannot be everywhere all the time so it is a good thing that these forums are here so people can raise concerns that see and/or are affected/influenced by.