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Have Multiboxers and Botting ruined Eve Online?
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#81 - 2017-03-26 18:02:29 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Everyone who is concerned about this issue needs to enlist in the New Order today.

Don't just complain on forums, do something about it!

Highsec is worth fighting for!

You mean, like the Kusion clan?

Mutliboxing is a cancer to the game for so many reasons. I'm aware it won't go away any time soon. Still every little thing that makes multiboxing more tedious is an improvement to the overall health of the game.

Remove standings and insurance.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2017-03-27 06:52:53 UTC
Ded Akara wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Quote:
making mining more interactive can resolve this problem?
basically changing the "semi-afk" style that is required right now to mine :)


They were sure quick to do this to carrier ratting, and did it the wrong way in my opinion by nerfing fighters. But the point is, why nerf carrier ratting but leave afk mining alone? You couldn't actually safely carrier rat afk, and it actually did require some level of activity and clicking. Was still nerfed.

EDIT: I want to clarify - I'm not saying ISK from carrier ratting didn't need to be nerfed - maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I'm saying 1) I was against the way it was done, and 2) why was ISK from carrier ratting deemed too excessive for too little work, while ISK from bot mining is completely AFK?


Because there's no such thing as 'AFK mining' it requires clicking.

AFK carrier ratting is a whole different story.

He talks about nerfing fighters. 'AFK carrier ratting' died when CCP removed drones from them and forced to use fighters only. Try it once on Singularity to know what you talking about.

And 'afk mining' exists. Take a look at gas huffing or ice mining. In my deep 0.0-sec space huffing gas only needs time/effort to scan anomaly and then once in a while use d-scan to check if neutral/red visitor does not try to scan anomaly down. There was times i could go sleep while my alt was sitting in gas cloud for hour or more.

Ice? The same story: use empty clone and cheap ship. Fir it for shield tank and stabs. Occasional soloer cannot point you, stealth bombers leave you alone. Not 100% afk but close to. Perfect for times when you do ratting/roaming of main screen.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Gregorius Goldstein
Queens of the Drone Age
#83 - 2017-03-27 07:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregorius Goldstein
Trebon Luap wrote:

I admit that most of my experiences have been in High Sec. Space.( Mining) Not all of it, but most of it.
I do a bit of ratting when I want to relax and I totally understand that not everybody wants to play on an adrenalin rush all the time. But 4 years of mostly highsec mining? That sounds like a second job to me. Well.. people are different, but I would get some extractors and change the profession and give it a chance before I would leave.


Trebon Luap wrote:

What I am having the most difficulty with is the Bot Fleets and the MultiBoxer fleets.........
AFAIK this are two very separate problems. Mining is a very monotone and simple way to play and because of that one can easily command more than one ship. Having several mining accounts and telling them all to shoot a new rock now and then is fair game to me. Highsec mining is the least complex of the low risc profession and therefore has a bad payout. Multiboxers make it worse, but it was not great to begin with anyway.

Real Boters on the other hand (there are far less than one may think, it is just multiboxing miners most of the time from what I can tell) are a pain and you should report them if you have good prove that this is botting. A couple of ships with nearly the same name shooting the same rocks is not a proof for botting. An nullsec fleet that sync warps to a POS every time someone without blue standing enters the system and mines the whole day is what we are looking for regarding bots.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#84 - 2017-03-27 13:59:47 UTC
Gregorius Goldstein wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:

I admit that most of my experiences have been in High Sec. Space.( Mining) Not all of it, but most of it.
I do a bit of ratting when I want to relax and I totally understand that not everybody wants to play on an adrenalin rush all the time. But 4 years of mostly highsec mining? That sounds like a second job to me. Well.. people are different, but I would get some extractors and change the profession and give it a chance before I would leave.


Trebon Luap wrote:

What I am having the most difficulty with is the Bot Fleets and the MultiBoxer fleets.........
AFAIK this are two very separate problems. Mining is a very monotone and simple way to play and because of that one can easily command more than one ship. Having several mining accounts and telling them all to shoot a new rock now and then is fair game to me. Highsec mining is the least complex of the low risc profession and therefore has a bad payout. Multiboxers make it worse, but it was not great to begin with anyway.

Real Boters on the other hand (there are far less than one may think, it is just multiboxing miners most of the time from what I can tell) are a pain and you should report them if you have good prove that this is botting. A couple of ships with nearly the same name shooting the same rocks is not a proof for botting. An nullsec fleet that sync warps to a POS every time someone without blue standing enters the system and mines the whole day is what we are looking for regarding bots.




When I am at a ice belt, for example, and one ship warps in, flys to the center of the ice feild, and then stops there for a minute or two, this is the first clue to a incoming fleet..... this ship does nothing, fyi, it just sits there.
Within a couple minutes eight or more ships, depending on which multiboxer or "bot" fleet it is, all warp in to the original ship's location.
If you watch these guys, these larger multibox fleets, you will see one Barge or Exumer use a servey scanner and within a spilt second two or three more ships do the same thing; always in little groupings.
Next they will all fire their minning moduals in the same fashion. This is the loint where yhe multiboxer becomes a botter. The automation of the process.
This procedure will repeat untill the whole of the fleet is up and mining. Then, if you keep watching, you will notice that when one of the ships depleets an ice cube, it will not start up on a new one till the others in it's little grouping are finished with their cube; then the procedure repeates itself, over and over till the ice belt is gone.

A person running two or three accounts at one time is not the issue, but when these larger fleets come into a system and vacume up everything, people get pissed. You only have to read local or fleet chat to see that.

At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#85 - 2017-03-27 14:17:55 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#86 - 2017-03-27 14:21:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Are you are saying that Eve is a game made for multiboxing as one of it's core fundamentals?
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2017-03-27 14:24:43 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Are you are saying that Eve is a game made for multiboxing as one of it's core fundamentals?


No, if eve was made for multi-boxing, then it would include better functionality and even have built in broadcasting.

But eve is a game that greatly benefits from multi-boxing, and that the company recognizes and supports as a valid play style.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#88 - 2017-03-27 14:26:44 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:

A person running two or three accounts at one time is not the issue, but when these larger fleets come into a system and vacume up everything, people get pissed. You only have to read local or fleet chat to see that.

At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


I would still say the issue is that the mining system in this case was designed and implemented with different expectations as to player activity levels, etc. compared to what they are and/or at times have been. The issue is that these systems haven't been updated to accommodate what the game has become rather than multiboxing itself being a problem - the overall effect on an individual player is the same whether what they are up against is one person with 15 accounts or 15 players in a corp.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#89 - 2017-03-27 14:29:40 UTC
Trebon Luap wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Are you are saying that Eve is a game made for multiboxing as one of it's core fundamentals?


No. But it's not prohibited (as long as it's not added with things like broadcasting), which means its fine. Your complaint is that someone is taking the time to multibox and taking some resource you want to have access to. What you should be doing is thinking, planning, scheming even, and if as you say it upsets people you should be organizing them to in some way fight against the multiboxer (out mining his ass does work, my old corp did it all the time)...

..rather than wasting time on a forum impotently complaining about it.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#90 - 2017-03-27 14:32:17 UTC
There's probably some decent way to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' as far as human miners vs bots. Some kind of mechanic that CCP could introduce which would nerf bots but reward human players.

Something like this (just an idea - maybe good, maybe bad): An asteroid being mined heats up each cycle that a mining laser is applied to it - something like the way modules heat up using overheating. As a 'roid heats up, the efficiency with which minerals are drawn from it decreases. After a couple of cycles of heat buildup, the 'roid is maybe giving you 10% of what it would if it were cool. A human player wanting to mine efficiently would switch targets every couple of cycles, giving the 'roid he was just mining a chance to cool off and be harvested again.

A player who just wants to AFK-mine will still be able to mine, but at a far reduced efficiency, and bots would be affected as well.

A question with the above scheme would be whether it would be easy to reprogram bots to just retarget new 'roids every now and then. I have no idea about that.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#91 - 2017-03-27 14:34:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Every new player to Eve starts in Highsec. When new players come up against tbis wall they become disenchanted with Eve at a critical point in their Eve careers. This affects many new players and they leave. I know some of the long time players scoff at thins Iidea simply because they can't remember way-back when they were first starting out. The game was way different back then. There where not as many of these fleets when they where making their way through Eve.
Just because you don't feel it is an issue that needs to be discussed and brought to attention does not make it a non-issue.
CPP wants more new people playing a subing to Eve? Don't simply ask and listen to the old time, jadded player base for their sugestions, they have their own agenda to maintain controll over other payers.

This is not by any means a new topic, but it is a topic that needs constant supervision, because it does affect Eve on some level.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#92 - 2017-03-27 14:43:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Are you are saying that Eve is a game made for multiboxing as one of it's core fundamentals?


No. But it's not prohibited (as long as it's not added with things like broadcasting), which means its fine. Your complaint is that someone is taking the time to multibox and taking some resource you want to have access to. What you should be doing is thinking, planning, scheming even, and if as you say it upsets people you should be organizing them to in some way fight against the multiboxer (out mining his ass does work, my old corp did it all the time)...

..rather than wasting time on a forum impotently complaining about it.




This is a discussion on a subject/issue.

You seem to be the one "complaining". I don't know if it's because you don't like the topic or because you don't like the idea of people expressing their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Either way... to each their own.

If you want to add to the discussion, I welcome you and your individual point of veiw.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#93 - 2017-03-27 15:02:57 UTC
The fastest (probably not best) way to reduce botting and AFK mining is to unleash the NPC carriers into the high sec belts. Let them prioritize the ice fields, and have them despawn after getting a few kills or enough time has passed.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#94 - 2017-03-27 15:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Trebon Luap wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:


At what point t does multiboxing become "wrong" to allow? Five, Seven , Twenty accounts all at once?


It never becomes wrong so long as the multiboxer is obeying the rules ie no broadcasting software, not botting. Instead of complaining people should be finding ways to deny the hated multiboxer his content, like paying someone to gank/disrupt his activities, or organizing real miners to out mine his ass and force him to move along (when he can't plex his accounts, he will move).

EVE is a game about figuring out problems, not coming to the forums and begging CCP to do it for you.



Every new player to Eve starts in Highsec. When new players come up against tbis wall they become disenchanted with Eve at a critical point in their Eve careers. This affects many new players and they leave. I know some of the long time players scoff at thins Iidea simply because they can't remember way-back when they were first starting out. The game was way different back then. There where not as many of these fleets when they where making their way through Eve.
Just because you don't feel it is an issue that needs to be discussed and brought to attention does not make it a non-issue.
CPP wants more new people playing a subing to Eve? Don't simply ask and listen to the old time, jadded player base for their sugestions, they have their own agenda to maintain controll over other payers.

This is not by any means a new topic, but it is a topic that needs constant supervision, because it does affect Eve on some level.


The problem with citing "new people" when you have and INDIVIDUAL PROBLEM is that it exposes the fact that you aren't in the least actually concerned with new people. You'rr simply looking for leverage to get other people behind the idea that some change needs to happen, in the false belief that if enough people do that, CCP will change it.

They won't. They are a company that likes money and they like multiboxers (most of whom plex , each plex briging in more money than any other way to subscribe). Hell, there is even an optimized setting in your escape menu that helps multiboxing work better.. So the idea that CCP is going to change it is stupid.

That leaves you two options. Quit (if multiboxing is too much for you to deal with) or fight back. "Complain on forums" is a non-starter.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#95 - 2017-03-27 15:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Trebon Luap wrote:




This is a discussion on a subject/issue.

You seem to be the one "complaining". I don't know if it's because you don't like the topic or because you don't like the idea of people expressing their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Either way... to each their own.

If you want to add to the discussion, I welcome you and your individual point of veiw.


Wait, how am I the one "complaining"? I didn't start a thread about multiboxing. I'm explaining that you are wasting your time. I suspect that you are wasting your time because that's easier than actually doing the things you could be doing right now to solve the problem you are having.


That's the thing i don't get, not just talking about you but all the complainers that run to this forum. The in game solutions aren't just faster than coming to the forums and begging for CCP intervention, they are WAY more satisfying too. Knowing that YOU (yourself), as an individual and player took what tools you had (including social skills, which help bring people in to help with a solution) and YOU made the problem go away.

But the complainers (again, not just you) don't even try. They see something they don't like, and BAM, straight to the forum. IMO it's a really weak way to think.

It's also selfish, that multiboxer is playing within the rules and you want to affect his gameplay externally rather than facing him in game and beating him within those same rules.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#96 - 2017-03-27 15:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebon Luap
Jenn aSide wrote:
Trebon Luap wrote:




This is a discussion on a subject/issue.

You seem to be the one "complaining". I don't know if it's because you don't like the topic or because you don't like the idea of people expressing their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Either way... to each their own.

If you want to add to the discussion, I welcome you and your individual point of veiw.


Wait, how am I the one "complaining"? I didn't start a thread about multiboxing. I'm explaining that you are wasting your time. I suspect that you are wasting your time because that's easier than actually doing the things you could be doing right now to solve the problem you are having.


That's the thing i don't get, not just talking about you but all the complainers that run to this forum. The in game solutions aren't just faster than coming to the forums and begging for CCP intervention, they are WAY more satisfying too. Knowing that YOU (yourself), as an individual and player took what tools you had (including social skills, which help bring people in to help with a solution) and YOU made the problem go away.

But the complainers (again, not just you) don't even try. They see something they don't like, and BAM, straight to the forum. IMO it's a really weak way to think.

It's also selfish, that multiboxer is playing within the rules and you want to affect his gameplay externally rather than facing him in game and beating him within those same rules.




So on the topic if multiboxing has ruined Eve, I should add you into the no collum.
It is hard to filter out any constructive criticism from your posts because you seem to fall back and rely on personal attack more than anything else.
Oh well, Every forum has a mix of different personality types present.


It is eerily coincidental that you jumped into this topic after I posted a few "tips" on spotting large multiboxing bot fleets. Did I in fact strike a nerve? Maybe?
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#97 - 2017-03-27 15:54:25 UTC
This might be splitting hairs, but I do think that the reason why someone is multi-boxing is an important role to whether it is hurting or helping Eve.

As an example, if I was a CEO of a corp that required 20 hours of ice mining per month to keep my structures fueled, would I rather have 1 character mining 20 hours or 10 characters mining 2 hours.

Yes, ideally you would have 20 different people in your corp mine for an hour then sell the ice to you, but because of IRL this isn't always possible. I would consider this beneficial to EVE, because it allows people to build their own castle and be more self sufficient.

The guy that has 20 skiffs mining ice so he can dump it into Jita and get more isk for the sake of getting more isk? Not so beneficial.
Trebon Luap
Hard Rock Mining Inc.
#98 - 2017-03-27 16:03:53 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
This might be splitting hairs, but I do think that the reason why someone is multi-boxing is an important role to whether it is hurting or helping Eve.

As an example, if I was a CEO of a corp that required 20 hours of ice mining per month to keep my structures fueled, would I rather have 1 character mining 20 hours or 10 characters mining 2 hours.

Yes, ideally you would have 20 different people in your corp mine for an hour then sell the ice to you, but because of IRL this isn't always possible. I would consider this beneficial to EVE, because it allows people to build their own castle and be more self sufficient.

The guy that has 20 skiffs mining ice so he can dump it into Jita and get more isk for the sake of getting more isk? Not so beneficial.




Very good post.

It does not present a solution to the issue, but it brings forth some good points to the discussion.; for and against.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#99 - 2017-03-27 16:22:18 UTC
I think part of the reason you won't find any solutions to your problem is that multiboxing is only really considered a problem in High sec.

The rest of us either don't care, also multi-box, or see that the benefits outweigh the downsides.

Wormhole life beyond basic daytripping activities would be annoying/difficult if done truly solo. Many activities in Null scale well to having a second account (extra PI, manufacturing/science, scouts, cyno alts, Black Ops hot dropping, etc.) I can't speak to low sec, but I imagine its similar to null.

The only place I can think of where multiboxing is considered bad are those big skiff fleets in the high sec ice belts. Are there other situations?
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#100 - 2017-03-27 16:51:13 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
I think part of the reason you won't find any solutions to your problem is that multiboxing is only really considered a problem in High sec.

The rest of us either don't care, also multi-box, or see that the benefits outweigh the downsides.

Wormhole life beyond basic daytripping activities would be annoying/difficult if done truly solo. Many activities in Null scale well to having a second account (extra PI, manufacturing/science, scouts, cyno alts, Black Ops hot dropping, etc.) I can't speak to low sec, but I imagine its similar to null.

The only place I can think of where multiboxing is considered bad are those big skiff fleets in the high sec ice belts. Are there other situations?


That's because the people who typically live in high sec are closer to wow players than they are actual EVE players in mentality. They literally run from any fight, get mad when they're forced into one, and ***** when someone has an advantage over them because they personally refuse to use the same tools available to them because it doesn't fit their playstyle (solo vs multibox mining, missions vs ratting, etc).

Just ignore them and move along until they finally move to WH/null as they were intended and realize how much time they've been wasting collecting pennies in HS. Single client or multiple, these areas of space will net them multiple times more than they ever could in HS outside of incursions. But since this complaint stems from mining...

Just saying folks, expand your horizons, stop looking at a single income source for one (only mining), and stop trying to live years within HS space. You don't realize just how much time and effort you're putting to waste there.