EVE General Discussion

Yes, this is a likely outcome, among some others.

Some caveats:
-Citadels can function as staging/dock/warehouse points in NPC Null.
-NS entities down the chain can aggress the LS bordering NS entities transports as well, in LS.
-NS entities down the chain can produce their needs locally.
-They can either join the border NS entity, or join other down chain NS entities to aggress it.
-The exterior and interior travel lines are not changed, except that LS cannot be cynoed into or through.
-Yes, NS invasion will largely require NS access. Im ok with this. LS is still part of the security spectrum above 0.
-NS wars, should be fought in NS, from NS.

The point is they CAN do it.

The smaller groups cannot. You're killing them off with a change like this. You're killing off small/independent FW participants. You're killing off low-sec industrialists. You're killing of low-sec PVE. You're killing of smaller null-sec corps who can't field significant protection fleets.

The only group that can cope with a change like this is the one you seem to be targeting. Your change makes it more difficult for everyone in null and low security space by making transport much, much more difficult. Only the large null-sec alliances will be able to cope. So because of that... they'll become relatively that much more powerful.

Overall the only way pirates will be able to stop a large null alliance's supply runs would be through a spy and EXTREMELY good logistics (made harder by removing cynos from low). If you had to wait until you had in-game evidence that a supply run was occurring... you'd never be able to get your fleet in position quick enough. Realistically that means another null entity... not low-sec gate campers. You can't drop on the caravan... you'll have to travel through gates just like them. And since they know the operation is coming... they'll have their neutral scout alts in place covering all approach systems before hand.

I don't think the high sec portion of either matters at all... because they already deal with that part just fine. The only difference will be the staging of return trips at a border station until the time the blob logs in to return. Again... unless you have foreknowledge that the op is coming you won't be able to get in place before the blob is on the move. And if you do... their scouts will likely see YOUR fleet moving into position and they'll simply postpone if they don't think they can take your fleet.

You may end up turning LS into a NS-light... in the sense that you get way more large fleet battles (albeit sub-capital) and much fewer near-even engagements. To me that defeats the purpose of low-sec (or the purpose that I have for low sec). Those small number engagements are my only reason for going to low to be honest. Those going away in favor of fleet action and gatecamps being the only PvP doesn't sound good to me in any way.

So your solution is to create more gate camps and less incentive for anyone other than pirates or a null sec fleet guarding a freighter from traveling in null. I thought you wanted more targets and not less.

Yeah... I don't think it will work that way.

The server has between 20K and 40K logged in at most points. There are hundreds of low-sec routes for various null-sec organizations to travel on. While I agree you could have 500 additional gatecamping pirates at any time in low-sec... that would be more like 50 different 10-man gatecamps in various systems from non-aligned groups... not 500 massed along a single travel route.

The large null-sec groups will scout ahead of time. They'll know what is in the area. They're not going to make a run if there is a chance they'll lose. They'll KNOW it's a safe route because their enemies can't drop on them.

Then they'll move. They'll blob the heck out of the route... smashing through those various 10 man gatecamps with 200 member fleets. The freighters will start moving... and the opposition will have what.... 30 minutes? An hour? That's all they'll have to marshall up a somewhat organized fleet capable of taking down a 200 man operation and get it to one of maybe 5-10 systems in low-sec along the route without cynoing.

Those groups won't be stopped or even hindered by this. It will be the smaller null-sec renters, the low-sec residents, FW participants and a few members of larger alliances who are unwilling to wait for the organized ops who get picked off. It will literally be everyone BUT the largest null-sec groups.

This isn't like a reinforcement timer where everyone knows when the action is starting and both sides show up ready to go. This is one group dictating the place and time and the other trying to react in brief period. That's the advantage the null-sec groups with large numbers have. By taking away mechanics that let solo/small groups get their basic market logistics work done (which is what jump freighters do), you make it so that only those who can manage large scale "traditional" logistics can keep prospering.

And that's the large null-sec alliances.

If NS wants to run a convoy through LS with superior numbers, go ahead.
They will also have to arrange it, call everyone up, group up, and most importantly, consolidate their shipments into one action.
LS can respond reciprocally. Intel will ofc be important.
(This is no different than NS reaction time to an other NS entities attack/action).

Those smaller entities you refer to, have to pass through NS anways inorder to reach the LS border.
They already need blue status with the NS entity controlling the access constellation to LS, or to run through hostile space.
My suggestion doesnt change that, except they will have to transfer to sub-caps to move the material through LS.

Everyone in EVE knows where the contact points between NS and LS are, and peripheral gates, and they are narrow.
We arent talking about hundreds here, we are talking about a couple dozen (cba to count exact figure)

Its not hard for the rest of EVE to setup LS corps there with sub-caps to engage NS shipments either to or from HS/NS.
And its worth it, because that NS/HS transiting material is endless and very valuable.

As I said before, a 200 ship NS escort may frankly not be enough.

If mercs/pirates and who knows what else choose to move to LS to intercept the post-change gatebased ceaseless, valuable, necessary material transports, we could easily be talking about thousands.

Corps like Marmite and other HS wardec corps can easily field 200+ inorder to wreck an NS convoy in LS, for huge profits from the freighters.

This works once or twice. But then you know prime time of this alliance and can prepare ambush.

And this convoy won't be huge and careful every time. So there are possibilities.

Add here that every big move always gets known to 3rd parties.

And the main thing i don't understand: what are these 'small groups' who have citadels and JFs, have need to often move huge amount of cargo around and yet are 'small' to not even break your '10 man gatecamp' when it's quiet around and locals are in bed for long?

You just described the losec of olde, back when the term "piracy" really applied to lowsec (not just griefers and bored campers coopting the name).

I would resub for that kind of action. Two accounts.

If you can't cyno in... exactly how are you going to manage an ambush?

Mass logoffski?

The problem with disabling cynos is that it gives the advantage to the bigger group and the group dictating the time/place of an engagement. You think null-sec alliances can't mount appropriate scouting to ensure the safety of a 5-10 system low-sec route? They won't notice another 200 man fleet in a nearby system?

Gatecamps work because they dictate the place and hope to catch travellers unawares. They don't work nearly as well when a prepared group with numbers and scouts comes through. And that's what we're talking about.

As for small groups with jump freighters... uh... yeah, there are tons of those. I'd say nearly every low-sec industrial corporation (many with 5-10 members) have jump freighter logistics in place. Most can't manage moving a freighter, fighting through 3-5 gatecamps of 10 pirates and scouting for the trip with any kind of effectiveness. Jump freighters are what allow those groups to exist in low-sec.

Most large null-sec alliances run multiple fleets a day. I can't see a 200 man escort op being much of a problem. I still think the only groups trying to hinder that are going to be other null-sec groups... not low-sec pirates. But taking away the ability to drop a cyno and jump a huge fleet on top of them will seriously limit the ability for even those groups... ambushes will be seen by scouts well before they arrive in 99% of the cases.

Heh, sometimes older is NOT better. You are a 'solo' lowsec player, as indicated in your earlier posts. So your agenda is to argue against anythign that brings people to live in lowsec.

From what I have been told the convoys of freighter traffic were always a nightmare to setup requiring days of full-time preparation.
Besides how long ago was that? Was it when the eve population was half what it is today?

I salute you for your solo 'quiet corner of lowsec' style of game-play, and I think there are sill many parts of lowsec where you can do that (it changes but sometimes ya gotta be nomadic).
However there are other types of players who appreciate teamwork and an online social life. There are other games you can play alone such as Elite Dangerous if you wanna break from Eve...but eve shines with teamwork and group content.

I'm not sure what you mean. Lowsec back then was full of life. People "living" out there? You mean like they live in highsec: grinding and farming? Back in my day (Warning: "Get off my lawn" is imminent) people who "lived" out in lowsec lived off real booty (stolen stuff booty, not rap video booty call booty) and ransoms. Sometimes they managed to get players to eject from their ship and steal the whole ship! Can I have a "Yarr!"?

What you are telling me is that people are "living" out there in the same manner that they live in nullsec: farming and grinding? Where's the excitement in that? What exactly are the farmers and grinders getting out of this game (be it in high, low, and null) anyway? Are they even playing a game at all any more?

I get the impression that everybody, from the highsec "carebear" to the nullbear living safe behind intel channels all want to live in some bubble of predictable ISK/reward/Risk balance. Predictable being the key word here. Even the gankers are stuck on predictable.

Is anybody having actual fun in this game any more?