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Structure services for faction war?
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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1 - 2017-03-22 23:47:59 UTC
I know that there is allot of resistance to structures in fw space because of the effect on station lockouts. I don't agree with station lockouts but I recognize there are pros and cons so Im not trying to discuss that here again. But in any event it seems ccp wants us to generally move to living into destructible stations.

Regardless of how that goes (whether militias can dock in citadels where they don't have sov or not or whatever) are there any ideas for service modules that can be attached to structures that would benefit faction war participants in particular? These fw service moduies could be tied in with the lp store.

Yes I would like it if a service for fw was that so long as that structure was owned by a fw corp it would provide intel as to plex timers being run in the constellation that the citadel was set up for any militia. No need to rehash arguments about this unless you have something new that wasn't brought up in the most recent thread here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=511134&find=unread


What about some other benefits to structures owned by fw corps? Cheaper manufacture of ships of that faction but more expensive for the directly opposing faction ships?

FW Agent office modules? (of course there couldn't be too many in a constellation) FW LP store? Allow fw wide contracts? This would be helpfull if you limitted who could dock there so enemy alts didn't buy your contracts. Maybe a one or more fw structure modules would allow several different benefits.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#2 - 2017-03-23 03:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
I can't agree with the notifications, but there is the link to the separate thread and debate of that.

I am for specialized or VIP docking structures with special permission within factional warfare space. I know there are some folks that oppose this, saying that lowsec is not just for factional warfare. This being true, it is also true that not all lowsec systems are FW territory. Some of them are located within the warzone and even adjacent to many of the warzone entries and exits. So there is no restriction on non-FW entities. There's plenty of lowsec space out there no one lives in. Let's be honest too, that much of the reason many corporations reside in certain areas is for the consistent content that FW participants create. We welcome this too, but, speaking for myself, wish for FW to have a better corner where we are left alone with our adversary, as in ihub fights. When one faction must destroy a vulnerable Infrastructure Hub, only FW players have the ability to shoot this structure. If there are structures for docking and such too, i wish for them to have the same conditions.

I don't understand how you expect to receive notifications, as if you expected to defend a constellation single-handedly? The FW window of the warzone shows small blips on where outposts are in progress of being captured. I do not know the delay on it, but it is surely there. Hover your mouse over it, sir. I think that should be enough as for intel one should receive remotely. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#3 - 2017-03-23 15:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Oreb Wing wrote:

We welcome this too, but, speaking for myself, wish for FW to have a better corner where we are left alone with our adversary, as in ihub fights. When one faction must destroy a vulnerable Infrastructure Hub, only FW players have the ability to shoot this structure. If there are structures for docking and such too, i wish for them to have the same conditions.


This comment made it so clear to me that people just disagree about what they want fw to be. Accordingly I think ccp should just make more than one set of mechanics for different faction wars. I post about that here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6883824#post6883824

If you want a system where there is little interference then I think you would want to move out of the current systems and maybe be in somewhere like aridia or even a new region ccp could create that is off the beaten path.

Oreb Wing wrote:

I don't understand how you expect to receive notifications, as if you expected to defend a constellation single-handedly? The FW window of the warzone shows small blips on where outposts are in progress of being captured. I do not know the delay on it, but it is surely there. Hover your mouse over it, sir. I think that should be enough as for intel one should receive remotely. Sorry. Couldn't help myself.


No the current map does not show where outposts are currently being captured. It is delayed and therefore of very little use.
I would think the real time intel could work in the map rather than through notifications. And no I wouldn't defend the constellation single handedly. As long as this service module is installed in a militia corp owned citadel the entire militia would get this intel for the constellation. Also they could make an entirely new structure that gives this intel. It wouldn't matter.

I realize you and others think hiding and plexing is good for fw and do not think people should know when their sov plexes are attacked so they can quickly defend it. But that is just a difference in what we think would be fun. My telling you forcing me to keep several alts in various systems to plex is repugnant, wont do much. Because if you like that then you like it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#4 - 2017-03-23 16:10:34 UTC
I would love to read your posts, but in all fairness they are very... Drawn out. Your responses here were very clear and to the point. I like that. It saves time. As for everyone having different ideas for FW, I think we can all agree that if an asset is tied to system upgrades and tier level, it should be a FW objective, not an open invitation to irrelevant non-FW blobs that tilt the playing field and make growing corporations within the militia abandon higher goals which would remain within the scope of established alliances.

Astrographically, and in terms of content, FW remains one of the best entry points for Alpha players. Where we take FW in the future should reflect this and take advantage of such potential and cultivate it.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#5 - 2017-03-23 16:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Oreb Wing wrote:
As for everyone having different ideas for FW, I think we can all agree that if an asset is tied to system upgrades and tier level, it should be a FW objective, not an open invitation to irrelevant non-FW blobs that tilt the playing field ....


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you give some examples of what you would want changed from the current mechanic. Without something concrete its hard to say if we all agree on it.

For example, do you think neutrals should be able to enter fw plexes? That would seem to support your overall goal of isolating fw objectives to only fw players wouldn't it? I personally would not want to play in such a system, but many people have proposed that over the years. It might also be good for new players.

I think this is outside the realm of what structures or structure services would be good for fw in particular. So I think it would be a discussion about whether we should have more than one fw system that appeals to different playstyles.

Oreb Wing wrote:

Astrographically, and in terms of content, FW remains one of the best entry points for Alpha players. Where we take FW in the future should reflect this and take advantage of such potential and cultivate it.


Again without a concrete example of what you mean by this, it is hard to say whether I agree or not. I tend to think FW is also one of the best endgames for veteran players who no longer want to invest allot of time in a computer game (like in null sec) but still would like to get some quick pvp and participate in a war. The goals of new and veteran players are not always contradictory, but they often can be. That is why again I think ccp should consider adding another faction war to the game.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=515016&find=unread

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#6 - 2017-03-23 17:33:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
As for everyone having different ideas for FW, I think we can all agree that if an asset is tied to system upgrades and tier level, it should be a FW objective, not an open invitation to irrelevant non-FW blobs that tilt the playing field ....


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you give some examples of what you would want changed from the current mechanic. Without something concrete its hard to say if we all agree on it.

For example, do you think neutrals should be able to enter fw plexes? That would seem to support your overall goal of isolating fw objectives to only fw players wouldn't it? I personally would not want to play in such a system, but many people have proposed that over the years. It might also be good for new players.

I think this is outside the realm of what structures or structure services would be good for fw in particular. So I think it would be a discussion about whether we should have more than one fw system that appeals to different playstyles.


I don't want to derail your thread by pushing my own ideas here. I have one going at the moment for changes I think would be great to see. One of my throws, in particular, does land within the topic of discussion here. In my attempt to slay two birds with one stone, I suggested that Citadels be given a unique role within the FW theatre by giving them the chance to act as the Infrastructure Hub - in essence, to replace it by having it deploy over it. It would function the same way as the ihub and become vulnerable in the same way as the ihub does now, forever solving the problem of ridiculous multiple vulnerability windows while at the same giving the defending party (one in possession of the Citadel) the ability to offer a grand last stand, with something meaningful at risk. I would limit their number of course to 1 Citadel per corporation. So. In this way you have planted your flag in a given place and everyone can see it; it can only be assaulted by those taking part in FW; it limits their numbers so that they are still present, but not so much in a way that they hurt the theater (as they have) by making strategy in docking restrictions and stations meaningless; they provide a concept and foundation for system upgrades; they enable smaller rising corporations a fighting chance and give alpha's something to aspire to in an Omega clone. Something to call your own.


Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#7 - 2017-03-23 17:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Cearain wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:

Astrographically, and in terms of content, FW remains one of the best entry points for Alpha players. Where we take FW in the future should reflect this and take advantage of such potential and cultivate it.


Again without a concrete example of what you mean by this, it is hard to say whether I agree or not. I tend to think FW is also one of the best endgames for veteran players who no longer want to invest allot of time in a computer game (like in null sec) but still would like to get some quick pvp and participate in a war. The goals of new and veteran players are not always contradictory, but they often can be. That is why again I think ccp should consider adding another faction war to the game.


For example, do you think neutrals should be able to enter fw plexes? That would seem to support your overall goal of isolating fw objectives to only fw players wouldn't it? I personally would not want to play in such a system, but many people have proposed that over the years. It might also be good for new players.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=515016&find=unread


I don't have any complaint with neutrals entering FW plexes. This has been a great source for content and of a predictable kind that has its limits in escalation, bound by the restrictions of the complex in which the engagement is taking place.

I do, however, think a neutral player (non-fw) should be flagged as suspect upon entering a FW site. It does us no good to become pirate and this, which, by far, is one of the greatest reasons for it. Who will really debate the flag? They are coming in for a fight and they know it, so let them come and have the fight without the hit to security status that hurts engagements in other areas with other neutrals (i.e. on gates as logi).

As far as isolating FW objectives to militia only. Surely you don't think it was ever a good idea to see infrastructure hubs shot by neutrals? This I would consider a major FW objective, the plexes a minor one.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#8 - 2017-03-23 18:00:26 UTC
Now as for the delay on the FW map on blips for objectives being captured. I have never seen the blip and headed to a system to see it empty. On some occasions a plex had just been completed. That is my experience of it. It was very useful and I used it as a tool to find fights for my squad and to camp outgoing gates from runners, or what you call rabbit plexers. If you can't run as fast as a rabbit, you outsmart him. Be like a trapper and use some other tricks. A cockbag thrasher is a wonderful thing.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#9 - 2017-03-23 22:25:17 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
As for everyone having different ideas for FW, I think we can all agree that if an asset is tied to system upgrades and tier level, it should be a FW objective, not an open invitation to irrelevant non-FW blobs that tilt the playing field ....


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you give some examples of what you would want changed from the current mechanic. Without something concrete its hard to say if we all agree on it.

For example, do you think neutrals should be able to enter fw plexes? That would seem to support your overall goal of isolating fw objectives to only fw players wouldn't it? I personally would not want to play in such a system, but many people have proposed that over the years. It might also be good for new players.

I think this is outside the realm of what structures or structure services would be good for fw in particular. So I think it would be a discussion about whether we should have more than one fw system that appeals to different playstyles.


I don't want to derail your thread by pushing my own ideas here. I have one going at the moment for changes I think would be great to see. One of my throws, in particular, does land within the topic of discussion here. In my attempt to slay two birds with one stone, I suggested that Citadels be given a unique role within the FW theatre by giving them the chance to act as the Infrastructure Hub - in essence, to replace it by having it deploy over it. It would function the same way as the ihub and become vulnerable in the same way as the ihub does now, forever solving the problem of ridiculous multiple vulnerability windows while at the same giving the defending party (one in possession of the Citadel) the ability to offer a grand last stand, with something meaningful at risk. I would limit their number of course to 1 Citadel per corporation. So. In this way you have planted your flag in a given place and everyone can see it; it can only be assaulted by those taking part in FW; it limits their numbers so that they are still present, but not so much in a way that they hurt the theater (as they have) by making strategy in docking restrictions and stations meaningless; they provide a concept and foundation for system upgrades; they enable smaller rising corporations a fighting chance and give alpha's something to aspire to in an Omega clone. Something to call your own.




I don't think it is derailing the thread. I think it sort of fits with the idea of finding new ideas for structures for faction war. I am not exactly sure what you are talking about here though.

I see you are saying that instead of a bunker a faction war corp could put up a citadel to act as the bunker right? So no one would be able to attack that citadel at all until enough plexes were run to make the citadel vulnerable, but then the citadel would be vulnerable the whole time and not just at set times right? Also a neutral could never shoot the citadel at all only fw militias. And you would only need to kill the citadel one time I assume not in seperate stages.

In any event that would make bunker busting much harder wouldn't it? Especially if someone stuck a fortizar there. It would also pretty much allow a station in station less systems.

Could could say amarr have a minmatar alt corp put the citadel up first and then lock everyone out?

Overall I see some pros and cons to this idea. I like the idea of replacing npc bunkers with something players own and pay for.

Oreb Wing wrote:

Now as for the delay on the FW map on blips for objectives being captured. I have never seen the blip and headed to a system to see it empty. On some occasions a plex had just been completed. That is my experience of it. It was very useful and I used it as a tool to find fights for my squad and to camp outgoing gates from runners, or what you call rabbit plexers. If you can't run as fast as a rabbit, you outsmart him. Be like a trapper and use some other tricks. A cockbag thrasher is a wonderful thing.


Unless they changed something since I stopped playing the map information was really outdated and fairly useless.

As far as chasing rabbits and trapping them, that is more like hunting. Playing a hunting game has absolutely no appeal to me. I want to play a war game. That is I want to play a game where both sides anticipate there will be combat and bring it on. Not one side tries to run away and other tries to catch them. Again I see lots of people like the idea that fw is more like hunting than war. And that is fine. That is why I propose ccp make a couple of faction wars with slightly different mechanics.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#10 - 2017-03-23 23:17:30 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I don't think it is derailing the thread. I think it sort of fits with the idea of finding new ideas for structures for faction war. I am not exactly sure what you are talking about here though.

I see you are saying that instead of a bunker a faction war corp could put up a citadel to act as the bunker right? So no one would be able to attack that citadel at all until enough plexes were run to make the citadel vulnerable, but then the citadel would be vulnerable the whole time and not just at set times right? Also a neutral could never shoot the citadel at all only fw militias. And you would only need to kill the citadel one time I assume not in seperate stages.

In any event that would make bunker busting much harder wouldn't it? Especially if someone stuck a fortizar there. It would also pretty much allow a station in station less systems.

Could could say amarr have a minmatar alt corp put the citadel up first and then lock everyone out?

Overall I see some pros and cons to this idea. I like the idea of replacing npc bunkers with something players own and pay for.


Basically this is exactly what I mean. Anyone not planting a Citadel over an iHub will not mind that it maintains its existing EHP and vulnerability once it is attacked. The iHub has always been just a large brick in space. With this it could be something much greater and, yes, capturing home systems much harder. That is why the restriction must be in place for only 1. Any corporation that reserves this opportunity for offensive operations would leave their system without an ihub, or one created by some alt militia dummy corp. In any case there will be less of them, but to avoid this alternate route, the system upgrades and benefits should only apply to the corporation that owns the Citadel in that system. So, you cannot benefit from the boost to PI, tower fuel reduction costs, and etc. if an Alt corp puts up the citadel. Other limitations can apply, such as starbase defense management limited to corpmates only. Many things can be done.

As it is right now, a Citadel makes a stationless system meaningless. That won't change, but the significance of that system will with it being the Citadel system of that corporation.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#11 - 2017-03-27 15:51:40 UTC
Nevermind. You were right on the blips having a hard delay. That's unfortunate. It would be a great tool for warzone control. Maybe an unfinished timer keeps it blipping. I have no idea.