These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Cargo Pilots Unite!!!!

First post First post
Author
Manfred Macx
EVE University
Ivy League
#21 - 2012-01-19 12:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Manfred Macx
Atticus Fynch wrote:
ShipToaster wrote:
Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.

Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment.


Lets break this down:

Collateral is to cover the loss/theft of the shipment.

Reward is payment for the shipment.

You are saying that reward is based on the number of jumps/distance the cargo pilot has to cover. OK, but consider this...

IRL, wouldnt you pay more to have a ton of gold moved one mile/km vs a ton of cotton balls moved the same distance? Yes you would. Why? Because of the value of the cargo. RL insurance comes into play. Weight of cargo also comes into play...but we dont have these options in EVE becuase EVE is not RL.


This comparison does not work. You are not taking into account that, in EVE, the courier has to pay this huge amount of collateral, which probably is close or the same as the value of the shipment. Then I, the client, does not need any insurance. I don't care how much risk you take when hauling my stuff, since I'm already covered for theft, pirates or what have you.

In EVE it makes sense to reward the hauler based on the time it takes to haul and the size of the shipment.
Atticus Fynch
#22 - 2012-01-19 18:55:06 UTC
Manfred Macx wrote:

This comparison does not work. You are not taking into account that, in EVE, the courier has to pay this huge amount of collateral, which probably is close or the same as the value of the shipment. Then I, the client, does not need any insurance. I don't care how much risk you take when hauling my stuff, since I'm already covered for theft, pirates or what have you.

In EVE it makes sense to reward the hauler based on the time it takes to haul and the size of the shipment.


Keep in mind that the shipper/shipping company, IRL would have his own insurance to cover any unforseen losses. We dont have that in EVE. Only the client is covered by way of collateral. This idea is to balance things out for the cargo pilot as well, not just the client. As it stands now, the shipper is at a disadvantage while the client is covered 100%. The present state of hauling contratcs also leaves the shipper open for scams.

ShipToaster wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:
A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.


You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees.

The next step would probably be to advertise for hauling corps on the forums and probably pay less than I do now.


And how is that a bad thing? I would love to see competition and more hauling corps come into existence fighting for your hauling needs. More hauling corps will be formed and as I said before, people wil still use public hauling services.

I only know of Red Frog and PUSH. In all of EVE there should be dozens of hauling corps fighting for your business. My idea will make it so. Moreso, it may actually carve out hauling territories in New Eden and even prompt territory wars by hauling corps. Fun times dude, and just becuase hauling has now become competetive and profitable.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Ai Shun
#23 - 2012-01-19 20:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null.

Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.


And they should continue to exist. In EVE, we live and learn or we die. You have learned from your experience, right? And you are a better pilot for it.

That is not an endorsement for scamming, but I want to keep one MMO open where you actually need to learn something other than point and click; where there are real challenges and where I can grow as a player. Like the old C-64 platformers or the games of that generation where failure was punished, harshly.

New players will learn; or they will lose a lot of ISK. But these fixed rate contracts will simply kill of another sector of the game while dumbing the game down.

Atticus Fynch wrote:
This does give hauling corps more teeth though, and that is a good thing becuase it actually makes "hauling" an eve profession instead of a "hobby" of sorts they way it is treated now.


Are you in a hauling corp at the moment? Have you worked with one?

It is not a hobby. The level of professionalism exhibit by these corporations is incredible. I'll give you a few examples from a recent transaction I had with PUSH Industries. (Through my Trader)

This was the first, within 5 minutes of creating the Contract.

Quote:
Push Industries has started picking up your stuff and created an estimate time for delivery:

>> Perimeter >> Niyabainen (67247 m³) (Courier)

ETA: 06:20

You will be notified upon delivery of your stuff with a delivery Evemail. You may also join ingame channel PUSHX for updated route information.

Don't move it, PUSH it.


Six minutes later the contract was completed, 1 minute (Checking mail timestamps now) before the ETA.

Quote:
Thanks for choosing Push Industries for moving your stuff.

If you need anything in the future, feel free to call upon us. Send us an evemail through the contacts in our corporation info, or send us a message in our ingame channel PUSHX. Also please be sure to post your feedback on how we did in our thread which can be found here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=455019

And remember, don't move it, PUSH it.


That was day before yesterday. Since then I've happily paid them their per gate fee, setting a collateral at twice the value of the goods. They show true professionalism and are a real hauling corporation; not just a "hobby" corporation.

So yeah, I think it is already a very, very viable profession. Once my low-sec Transport skills are up to scratch and I've practiced a bit I'm planning on applying to them to haul for them.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#24 - 2012-01-20 04:34:52 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:

A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.


Yeah, no. You're completely confused about how things work in the real world (and EVE).

The reason you pay more in the real world to ship a container of gold vs cotton balls would be:

a) Fuel costs due to the larger mass involved, possibly requiring special equipment if you exceed the standard maximum weights for shipping containers. (Or you split your load up across multiple containers / trailers.) EVE has no concept of shipping mass, nor fuel costs for normal jump gates. Even jump freighters only care about distance traveled, not mass hauled.

b) Insurance. If you want to ship 1B dollars of gold across the country, and have it insured against theft / loss, then you're going to pay some percentage of the value in shipping insurance. Or require that the shipper post a bond equal to the value of the shipment. In EVE, we call this "collateral" which is there to prevent the shipper from running off with your stuff.

Once you get past those 2 variables, the only other factor which determines shipment costs are:

c) Load size. How many trips it will take you to move the load from A to B. In the case of less dense items, this is limited by the volume of the container. For denser items in the real world, you're limited by the carrying capacity of the container / trailer / tractor. We have this concept in EVE and it's called "cargo space".

d) Distance. How long will it take for the driver to get from A to B and will you have to pay for deadhead time on the way back. In the real world, we have distances (per-mile rate) or just pay by the hour (hourly rate). In EVE, this is most easily calculated as # of jumps, because the time spent between gates isn't all that long (most of the time is spent getting the freighter aligned). It's also really hard to figure out exactly how many jumps + lightyears between gates + alignment time - so we just approximate as "# of jumps".

Now, you could *try* to charge your customers a 7.5% premium based on the overall collateral to move something, but most folks are going to tell you go pound sand. It's not worth 75M ISK to move 1B of goods unless I'm in a tearing hurry.

This does not need to be added to the game. The courier contract system is fine "as-is" and the fact that there are at least (2) full-time hauling companies (PUSH and Red Frog Freight) shows that it's working. Not to mention the dozens of smaller haulers who survive on networking with customers and have private clientele.
Atticus Fynch
#25 - 2012-01-20 04:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


Now, you could *try* to charge your customers a 7.5% premium based on the overall collateral to move something, but most folks are going to tell you go pound sand. It's not worth 75M ISK to move 1B of goods unless I'm in a tearing hurry.

This does not need to be added to the game. The courier contract system is fine "as-is" and the fact that there are at least (2) full-time hauling companies (PUSH and Red Frog Freight) shows that it's working. Not to mention the dozens of smaller haulers who survive on networking with customers and have private clientele.



As I've said before, private contratcs can continue to be whatever they want. The fixed percentage is for public contracts. The fact that there are only two main hauling corps in EVE shows it's not working. Yes, 1 billion worth of goods is worth 75mill to the cargo pilot in reward. The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair. Roll

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

ShipToaster
#26 - 2012-01-20 06:27:20 UTC
I dont get what your problem here is.

I state that we will see an elimination of public contracts using your massive jump in costs idea but you think this is ok because we will have private contracts that will do precisely what public contracts do now, with the one problem that the majority of small and independent haulers will have nothing to haul as no one will use public contracts any more.

Final word from me is current system is one of the few things in EVE that is working absolutely fine and has no need to change.

.

Atticus Fynch
#27 - 2012-01-20 06:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
ShipToaster wrote:
I dont get what your problem here is.


There is no problem. I just disagree with your conclusion on the matter for reasons already stated.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
#28 - 2012-01-20 10:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bearilian
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


b) Insurance. If you want to ship 1B dollars of gold across the country, and have it insured against theft / loss, then you're going to pay some percentage of the value in shipping insurance. Or require that the shipper post a bond equal to the value of the shipment. In EVE, we call this "collateral" which is there to prevent the shipper from running off with your stuff.

i gota comment. I have a real hard time following the argument against this idea. would someone really post a bond of over 1 Billion in currency, without getting paid a considerable amount in exchange??? the percentage of people who can earn over 1b in eve outways that potential in RL.. there is only what, 1% or less of the human population that has that kind of money?

I do see how having a fixed rate may not work in some situations. possibly have the percentage be affected by certian attributes of the contract. example: distances, does the shortest distance pass through low or null sec.

When it comes down to it, there is not really arguable reasons against such a change. i understand the need to keep things a sandbox. but it feels like only the scammers are the ones who truly want this left alone. yeah, you can take advantage of noobs, and try to move your stuff cheaply, but thats too easy.... every argument i ever had about this game, it seemed, was about making the game more dynamic and challenging to play. theres gota be hundreds of people who posts scam contracts with the off chance someone may "accidentally" accept it. its just weak in my opinion is all.

lastly, im going to have to agree with the OP one more time. i do not think such a change would "eliminate" currier contracts. and if people chose to use private contracts and find "clientel" all the better.
Zaxix
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2012-01-20 17:11:53 UTC
Not supported.

If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog. There is no need to institute this solution when all you have to do is ignore low paying contracts. The underlying logic of your proposition is essentially that people should be forced to pay a certain amount because the collateral is so large. The collateral issue is only one of liquidity. You aren't losing the money; you're temporarily losing access to it. The cost of hauling is about the time; it's not about the amount of the collateral. If there is a contract for 50 jumps (longest possible station to station pure hisec route) for an item with collateral of 100k, 7500 is a laughable reward. And if a contract is for Jita 4-4 to Jita 4-5 with a collateral of 2 billion, a reward of 150 million is absurdly expensive.

If what you want is better pay for contracts overall, do what I and many others have, don't EVER take crap contracts. So, haulers of eve unite... and stop taking crappy contracts.

Bokononist

 

Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-01-20 18:49:09 UTC
Quote:

The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair. Roll



If you feel that the reward is not enough, then don't accept the contract. Someone else will . . .


As I have posted before, I use public contracts to move all of my industrial materials (usually to/from a major trade hub if not between them). I run maybe 4-10 shipments per week, EVERY OFFER I EVER MADE HAS BEEN ACCEPTED

My standard rates are 100-200K / Jump (depending upon volume) for less than about 1 billion.

For collateral above 1 billion, I pay about 0.15%-0.45% of the collateral (depending upon the volume).


From my results, it looks like I am overpaying, but I like having my goods delivered and like keeping my contract slots available.

-FM


Atticus Fynch
#31 - 2012-01-20 19:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Zaxix wrote:
Not supported.

If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog].


Red Frog has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Do you realize that with a fixed public percentage requirement, private corps now have a measuring stick to use to offer cheaper services. 7%, 6%, 5%...so on.

Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the current system as it stand, that will never happen.


Fango Mango wrote:
Quote:

The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair. Roll



If you feel that the reward is not enough, then don't accept the contract. Someone else will . . .



Yes someone else will accept becuase there is a sucker born every minute (newbs) and EVE is full of predators and nothing will ever change nor should anything ever change becuase -I am doing just fine with the way things are and if you are not then HTFU and dont expect CCP to hold your hand blah blah blah...-

I have that reply memorized already. Roll

My suggestion makes for a better game by balancing risk/reward in the hauling field. Again (for the millionth time), private contracts can continue to be what they want...so what is the issue? Red Frog will continue have their clients and you can have yours. What more you may even have more customers with this implementation if you can beat %7.5 and more hauling corps will open because they now have a target (%7.5) to beat. This suggestion provides for new/inexpereinced players as well as the freelance hauler not interested in joing a corp.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#32 - 2012-01-20 19:18:44 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:

Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the system as it stand, that will never happen.


RF does not have a monopoly - otherwise how do you explain PUSH? At best, they have a duopoly.

Why are they so successful and why do they get so much business?

- Good word of mouth advertising and reputation.
- A standard fee schedule, which means I can predict my shipping expenses
- Professional level of service (no drama, both have good completion times, etc)

There is no "establsihed" monopoly in shipping, only the lack of effort for someone else to attempt to out-compete RF and PUSH.

In short, there's no problem here with the courier market - you just need to be smart about which contracts you accept, pay close attention to routing / over-inflated collaterals and other obvious traps.
Atticus Fynch
#33 - 2012-01-20 19:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Fynch
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Atticus Fynch wrote:

Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the system as it stand, that will never happen.


RF does not have a monopoly - otherwise how do you explain PUSH? At best, they have a duopoly.

Why are they so successful and why do they get so much business?

- Good word of mouth advertising and reputation.
- A standard fee schedule, which means I can predict my shipping expenses
- Professional level of service (no drama, both have good completion times, etc)

There is no "establsihed" monopoly in shipping, only the lack of effort for someone else to attempt to out-compete RF and PUSH.

In short, there's no problem here with the courier market - you just need to be smart about which contracts you accept, pay close attention to routing / over-inflated collaterals and other obvious traps.



Oh and just a duopoly is good?

One side here will always say there is no problem with the current system....the winning side.
Everyone else can eat cake, right?

Apparently those opposed feel they have something to lose otherwise they wouldnt be so vocal in their protests. So just come out and say what it is that you are afraid of losing.

-Your win/win situation of exorbitant collateral followed by a pathetic reward?
-Or is it the security of knowing your over-inflated collateral will make a nice cushion for you in case the pilot is ganked?
-Or perhaps every shipping contract you make is like a lottery where you hope (or know by planning) eventually he will be ganked giving you a nice payoff?

Those are not fair practices and places the freelance hauling pilot at a greater loss than there needs to be regardless of how smart he needs to be in his choices (keep in mind the pilot never knows what he is shipping until he accepts the contract). This will most definitely cut down on the number of garbage/scam hauling contracts out there as well.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Zaxix
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2012-01-20 21:37:32 UTC
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Red Frog has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Do you realize that with a fixed public percentage requirement, private corps now have a measuring stick to use to offer cheaper services. 7%, 6%, 5%...so on.

Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the current system as it stand, that will never happen.

Red Frog doesn't have a monopoly. Not even close. There are currently at least 4 courier companies in operation and a LOT more hauling pilots engaged in private, long term deals with particular industrialists. In the same breath that you advocate for higher wages for hauler pilots, you're asserting that people could use the 7.5% as a measure to pay LESS, not MORE. You've made the case to push business to private corps, whose management you're advocating then engage in price wars, with the end result that the hauler gets the same crappy pay they would have gotten in the first place.

Also, why exactly did you insert the statement "Red Frog does not own eve"? Talk to anyone who knows. Not only are we totally neutral, we have a strict no combat policy, and we actively encourage competition. There's plenty of hauling for everyone. We've stated that publicly many times. Red Frog is mentioned so much because we've been around so long. It's odd that someone would try to lay the state of the public contract market at our feet, when the only reason such crappy contracts are put up is that haulers keep taking them.

But all that aside, your response doesn't address my specific examples of the 50 jump pittance of a fee and the same system reward jackpot. Why would anyone pay 150 million to move 2 bill worth of stuff from one station to another? That's more than Black Frog charges for delivering to the most distant NPC nosec in EVE.

This all kind of pointless though; CCP is never going to institute anything like set pricing.

Bokononist

 

Atticus Fynch
#35 - 2012-01-20 21:49:52 UTC
Zaxix wrote:


This all kind of pointless though; CCP is never going to institute anything like set pricing.


We shall see.

[b]★★★Cargo Pilots Unite!!!★★★ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132[/b]

Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#36 - 2012-01-20 23:25:06 UTC
you still havn't answered his question.

Ai Shun
#37 - 2012-01-21 01:35:34 UTC
ShipToaster wrote:
[You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees.


Same here. A fixed charge sounds; I don't know. It smacks of attempts to create an egalitarian society. I don't like that conceptually, just as I don't like price fixing or any attempt to control a free market.

Atticus Fynch wrote:
Oh and just a duopoly is good?


Sounds to me as if that is an opportunity.

You haul, right? I haul; although I am not very good at it yet. I need more capital for a Freighter and I need to complete my lowsec training so I can fly my Crane. (Good thread here, if you are interested)

So how about this. How about both of us join one of the hauling corps to go haul for them? Otherwise, would you be keen to start a hauling corp, advertise it and see what we can do together; see if we can get more pilots to fly with us and increase the competition?

What do you reckon?
Ai Shun
#38 - 2012-01-21 01:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Atticus Fynch wrote:
Based on the hauling/distance model you presented let me ask, are you willing to pay per jump if all you are shipping is a skillbook worth just 1mill isk over 30 jumps? No you wouldnt. To save money you would then claim the job is based on cargo value and not haul distance.


I can't see why anyone would ask a cargo hauler to carry a skill book for 30 jumps when it would fit in a shuttle, align quickly and fly at rocket speed.

But let's look at it. Would you haul something like a skillbook for 30 jumps for 400K ISK?

It would be a ludicrous job for a hauler.


Atticus Fynch wrote:
t's still the same distance to the cargo pilot regardless of cargo even though you may feel the job should be much less based on the value of your cargo in that scenario. It is still the same amount of work even if your cargo is 100mill isk in value over 30 jumps.


And thus we get paid per jump. The collateral is our risk, in securing the cargo. The distance (jumps) determines how much we get paid. And the collateral is the senders' insurance that we won't steal their cargo.

It seems fair to me; we're being paid for the work we do. It is the cargo pilot's choice to carry the risk or not.
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2012-01-22 11:27:47 UTC
Offtopic posts removed.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

LeHarfang
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2012-01-24 09:16:46 UTC
The real problem we have in eve is that haulers have no way of offering their services, in contracts, and have them directly affect the prices the costumer has to pay.

I mean, of course when starting, you have to take what there is available, but even there, moving around with a cargo worth 400m (or at least thats what the collateral said, the guy could be lying) for a mere 1 or 2 million or less is really not worth it.

Again, if those were only some contracts here and there, no problem there. the problem is that every contracts are like that.

I guess being in corps that specialize in courrier and has contacts and good standings with other corps do get better prices for a better collateral thats more worth what's being hauled.

However, it does make it hard for starting in the business.
Previous page123Next page