These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Skill Point Allocation
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tristan Duvarkan
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2012-01-22 09:06:32 UTC
Issue:
Tonight I was staring at my character sheet with regret as I looked at the wasted skill points and skills that I’ll never use again. Many players when they join EVE have no idea of which career path they will choose and often experiment with several before choosing one. This results in skills trained to low levels that will likely never be used again.

Proposal:

Introduce a real money service accessible through the online account management page that would allow a player to select which skills to remove from his character with the skill points being moved into the unallocated skill queue in game. (I envision this system similar to a character sheet with check boxes next to each skill you wish removed.)

Charge players a service fee on a per skill basis at a reasonable rate ($5-$10)

This account service will be payed for by credit card much in the same way that a character transfer is paid for.

Benefits:

Players will be able to reallocate skill points they do not need or no longer use to areas that they do use.

CCP benefits financially with the price of removing 2 skills costing more than the monthly subscription.

The system for reallocation of skill points is already built into the game.

Overuse or abuse is prevented by the cost, ie. Most players will not remove 150-200 skills at once.

Thoughts?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2012-01-22 09:12:30 UTC
What's the problem with having skills you never use, especially if they're just trained to low levels (and thus don't really add to the cost of your clone — the only negative with having lots of SP)?


Anyway, as this is a “SP remap” suggestion, the standard list of detrimental effects applies:

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

…and no, cost will not stop people — just imbalance the whole thing towards something resembling a P2W-scheme.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2012-01-22 09:42:00 UTC
Yup. It's not a new idea, and it's as awful now as it was years ago when it was first proposed.
Tristan Duvarkan
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2012-01-22 09:43:39 UTC
What's the problem with having skills you never use, especially if they're just trained to low levels (and thus don't really add to the cost of your clone — the only negative with having lots of SP)?


Anyway, as this is a “SP remap” suggestion, the standard list of detrimental effects applies:

It removes the point of having skills to begin with. (Nope, I still spent time training the skill points and if I want to add new skills I still have to pay for it)
It removes the point of having attributes. (It affects it to a certain point yes but with the way bonus remaps have been going around and with the removal of race based attributes the issue is a small one)
It removes attribute implants from the game. (Attribute implants = speed. I already trained the skills and spent time training. Im not going to get rid of my speed implants just because I have the ability to reallocate.)
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. (EVE is big, with plenty of variety, most alliances already require alliance setups for fleets to all be the same. If anything it would result in more specialization. Most 2nd and 3rd toons are already built for a specialized purpose anyway)
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. (If you don’t want to lose your uniqueness don’t do it)
It removes planning and choice and consequences. (Experienced players don’t usually make mistakes in this way, its beginners. As such it would help players especially those in their second and third years in game.)
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. (Once again, Its for time already spent training)
It kills character trading. (If anything it’s a boost for people selling their toons. You’ll get more for a more specialized character. The people hurt will be the ones farming specialized characters)
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.(So? I’ve spent multiple hundred dollars on eve over the years and I’ll spend more to get to a point where my lower skill point toon can compete with one that’s been around since 2005.)
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

…and no, cost will not stop people — just imbalance the whole thing towards something resembling a P2W-scheme. (If your willing to spend $2000 to remove all your skill points just to relocate them along with having to purchase all those new skill books, knock yourself out, or CCP limiting how many skills per month or year you could do would work to)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#5 - 2012-01-22 09:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tristan Duvarkan wrote:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. (Nope, I still spent time training the skill points and if I want to add new skills I still have to pay for it)
Yes, but it removes the decision skill training entails: do you pick skill A or skill B? If you can cash in the SP, it no longer matters because you can pick whichever you need at the moment. This is also the reason it removes attributes: they are there to make you choose between slow(ish) but steady progression in all areas, or speedy progression in one are at the cost of abysmal progression in others — if you can just remap the SP you learn, you just set your attributes to whichever you get the most SP from and then remap those SP as needed. For all intents and purposes, the attributes (and implants related to them) no longer have any impact.
Quote:
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. (EVE is big, with plenty of variety, most alliances already require alliance setups for fleets to all be the same. If anything it would result in more specialization. Most 2nd and 3rd toons are already built for a specialized purpose anyway)
Yes, it would result in more specialization in the same thing for everyone, since you are no longer bound by your previous choices. This means there is less variety.
Quote:
It removes planning and choice and consequences. (Experienced players don’t usually make mistakes in this way, its beginners. As such it would help players especially those in their second and third years in game.)
…and the mistakes of beginners are so small and insignificant that they don't matter that much in the long run — definitely not enough to warrant such a drastic and fundamental change in the game. Oh, and experienced players make the same mistake: they jump on the “wrong” FOTM bandwagon, and are out of style for a while… with SP remaps, this risk is gone.
Quote:
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. (Once again, Its for time already spent training)
…which doesn't need to be planned out ahead of time, since you can put your SP into whatever you want, rather than in the things you train.
Quote:
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.(So? I’ve spent multiple hundred dollars on eve over the years and I’ll spend more to get to a point where my lower skill point toon can compete with one that’s been around since 2005.)
…so it does the exact opposite of what the common argument for such an implementation says it does: it doesn't in any way help new players — it only screws them over. Older players don't need the help.


All of this over something that's arguably not even a problem to begin with.
Jade Mitch
A Problem with Authority
#6 - 2012-01-23 05:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Mitch
1. It's a fantastic idea and should have been added years ago, when it was first proposed.
2. We should be able to move our SPs one at a time from/to any skill from/to the unallocated queue.
3. We've already paid for our SPs with our time and account subscription fees. No reason to charge extra for reallocation.
4. It doesn't matter to me where you put your SP. There is no such thing as overuse or abuse.

This feature is needed, not only because of the issues that the OP pointed out but, because our skill sets are often ruined when CCP makes changes to the game, and they already owe us for that as well as SP lost from char recycling.
Jade Mitch
A Problem with Authority
#7 - 2012-01-23 06:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Mitch
Tippia wrote:

What's the problem with having skills you never use, especially if they're just trained to low levels (and thus don't really add to the cost of your clone — the only negative with having lots of SP)?

Your SP is a direct measure of the amount of time and money you've invested in the game.
Any SP you have in skills you aren't using deprives you of some of your investment.
Any chars you've created that can't be used due to bad skill choices deprives you of your investment.
Recycling old chars with bad skill choices losing SP and deprives you of your investment.
Changes to the game that ruin your skill choices deprives you of your investment.

Tippia wrote:

Anyway, as this is a “SP remap” suggestion, the standard list of detrimental effects applies:
It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.

all nonsense

Tippia wrote:

It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

…and no, cost will not stop people — just imbalance the whole thing towards something resembling a P2W-scheme.

it adds variety without recycling chars and losing SP
it maximizes character specialization
it adds choice which requires planning and always has consequence
it enhances goal-setting and improves progression and achievement
it simplifies character trading, as total SP is all that will matter
it helps even the playing field between younger and older chars
it makes catching up faster, which is already a concept in Eve
stop people from what?
Isabelle Evotori
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-01-23 07:21:59 UTC
Jade Mitch wrote:
1. It's a fantastic idea and should have been added years ago, when it was first proposed.
2. We should be able to move our SPs one at a time from/to any skill from/to the unallocated queue.
3. We've already paid for our SPs with our time and account subscription fees. No reason to charge extra for reallocation.
4. It doesn't matter to me where you put your SP. There is no such thing as overuse or abuse.

This feature is needed, not only because of the issues that the OP pointed out but, because our skill sets are often ruined when CCP makes changes to the game, and they already owe us for that as well as SP lost from char recycling.



No skills should not be movable or re allocable. Skills should be planed carefully. if you trained the wrong skill by mistake it is your own fault.

you cant undo a university education just to find out later that you don't like the the subject. it is stupid.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#9 - 2012-01-23 13:31:46 UTC
Jade Mitch wrote:
Your SP is a direct measure of the amount of time and money you've invested in the game.
Any SP you have in skills you aren't using deprives you of some of your investment.
No. That's what this suggestion is trying to make it into. It's not like that right now. Right now, your SP is a direct measure of the choices you've made over the history of your character -- good ones and bad ones. Being able to dump them deprives you of that history.

Quote:
all nonsense
Compelling argument there. Roll

Quote:
it adds variety without recycling chars and losing SP
it maximizes character specialization
...except that those two are inherently contradictory. If it maximizes character specialisation, it will be into the latest FOTM, which means there is no variety. You are already entirely free to add variety without losing SP, so there is no addition there.

Quote:
it adds choice which requires planning and always has consequence
it enhances goal-setting and improves progression and achievement
No, it completely removes any planning and consequence since your choices can always be revoked and redone. You can reach your goal instantly and without any progression or achievement.

Quote:
it helps even the playing field between younger and older chars
it makes catching up faster, which is already a concept in Eve
Except that older players will always have more total SP, which so far means nothing since they are tied down by the choices and history of the character. Catching up doesn't have any meaning because the only thing a new character can't have is the same amount of total SP -- the skills themselves are capped and can always be caught up with, whereas total SP is completely meaningless. If you give total SP a meaning by making it remappable, then new players can never catch up with this new meaningful metric, and the playing field is forever skewed towards those who have more total SP (older players). It becomes as far away as even as it possibly can be. Catching up does not become faster -- it becomes impossible.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#10 - 2012-01-23 14:34:06 UTC
Jebus, not this again.

There must have been a time when you did use that skill, so you have benefited from it, and now you want to take those SP and stick em into something else?


Let me guess, your WTFBBQPAWN Boat got nerfed and you want to reasign skills to the new FOTM now.

You started as a miner to make some money, then ran missions, but now you want to reasign all your industry skills into carrier skills because you will OWN EVERYTHING in a carrier, and you want to do it NOW.....!!!!!!

Or, you used to use skill X... but now you want skill Y, but skill Y takes too long and you want to use skill Y NOW>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Eve is a game about consiquences for your actions. Make your decisions and live with them.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2012-01-23 14:36:42 UTC
Shocked People actually think reallocating skill points is a good idea?

Are you people even reading what Tippia is posting? I can't believe you are actually arguing this. Its a terrible idea and would destroy the game on various fronts.