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[FACTION WARFARE] 7 Caldari Militia Citadels Terminated in 1 Day
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Yarosara Ruil
#21 - 2017-03-16 14:34:23 UTC
Boo! Hiss! Federation bad!

Wait... I work for them now...

...

Yay! Democracy! Federation rules!
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#22 - 2017-03-16 14:36:06 UTC
Graelyn wrote:
I am a bit confused by the people throwing the word 'Illegal' around.

If we people did not keep on confusing "legal" with "moral", we'd not have these wars in the first place...
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#23 - 2017-03-16 14:39:52 UTC
Illegal, though?

Sure, it highlights the utterly ridiculous nature of the Pendulum Wars, but I can't see anyone getting arrested or blown up over it.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2017-03-16 16:15:48 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Dropping citadels in mass to bypass the engagement rules of the CEWPA conflict. A tactic that is virtually impossible to stop and costs almost nothing.

I am sure everyone involved can see why CONCORD is petitioned daily to regulate and stop this kind of behavior.


Concord gets petitioned daily about all kinds of things, Aya. The fact that Concord has been petitioned to stop something and hasn't expressed an opinion on the subject in any way does not make that thing against the law. It doesn't even make it against the rules - a more accurate description.

In addition, whilst the addition of citadels makes expelling pilots from a system more difficult and makes engaging them under the guns of said Citadels impossible, this is merely an extension of the existing "station games" and "gate games" that prevailed previous to their introduction.

Moreover, the fact that the majority of said citadels were destroyed before they could be onlined suggests that the tactic does, in fact, have a hard counter.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2017-03-16 19:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
At no point did I use the word illegal and in fact CONCORD has expressed their opinon which is "we are aware of the problem and looking at solutions."

I have fought this same thing from the Imperium, from TEST, ..from BNI. More firepower, more supercapitals, and their response is to just continue to do the same thing until burnout of responding forces. It is a tactic of attrition. Virtually impossible to keep at least one from onlining eventually is not the same as "not having a hard counter."

That is two phrases you restated for me and twisted. If I wanted to defend their illegality or argue they did not have a counter I would have said so.

If you want a scapegoat to argue against pick someone else.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2017-03-16 21:03:43 UTC
I suppose we can quibble about the precise definition of the phrase "against the rules' if you like... Seems like a waste of time and energy to me.

That said, presenting the Gallente with a war of attrition that they don't want to fight is the very essence of our conflict against them. They're richer and more numerous. Should we restrict our tactics to suit them?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2017-03-17 01:56:32 UTC
Or pieter, you could just read what I am saying in the first place.
Ayallah wrote:
Dropping citadels in mass to bypass the engagement rules of the CEWPA conflict.

Bypass Pieter. Meaning an alternative route or secondary path. You have been in militias, I have been in militias. At what point during that time were you able to dock in enemy space Pieter? Only with the advent of citadels. Why do you think militia pilots are constantly petitioning CONCORD about it?

If you are still confused as to who used the word illegal or any phrase "against the rules" I can educate you in how a neocom can search entire pages at a time for specific key words. For example. The word 'illegal' was used twice on the first page of this thread, both times by Degnar Oskold. His name does not remotely resemble mine. The use of the word 'against the law' in this thread was by you not me.

I do not want to "quibble" with you about things I never said Pieter. I want you to upgrade your ocular implants and engage your brain. I want you to stop this passive twisting of what I say to argue against some point you feel like arguing against. If you are incapable of that then I will be more than happy to teach you how to not see my posts on this forum in the future.

Or, we can take this picking of fights further to a far uglier conclusion. I prefer you learning to read and not creating problems neither of us need and I do not want.

I hope want the same.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#28 - 2017-03-17 06:42:34 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
I have fought this same thing from the Imperium, from TEST, ..from BNI. More firepower, more supercapitals, and their response is to just continue to do the same thing until burnout of responding forces.


S'truth, we've still got fully-gunned cits all up through Lonetrek, Pure Blind, Dek, Tribute, and Venal. Dagrid and Zungen go up there to play ever so often. As an attrition tactic, it's not a bad one. As long as Upwell structures can be transferred to, or utilized by, organizations involved in a CONCORD-sanctioned conflict, it's a tactic that'll continue in the Pendulum Games.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#29 - 2017-03-17 06:44:18 UTC
Persephone Alleile wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Although I'll admit I had a chuckle at calling CalMil 'terrorists' while allying with Project Mayhem. What's next, Snuff?


You must have missed this:

Degnar Oskold wrote:
[...]In addition, the prospect of citadel kills brought assistance from the local pirate group Snuffed Out.[...]


Chuckles all around to be sure.


I'm kinda shocked they didn't go for the full Project Waffle Box package. But maybe Waffles was busy someplace.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#30 - 2017-03-17 07:03:18 UTC
Let me get this straight - I have been away and I am a little confused of what is going on.

But, basically, we are upset because tactics exist that help people to go around the toy war limitations, to actually gain territory and to hold to it? Tactics that actually require force and planning to counter? Tactics that actually make it a war, not a sport?

Lovely.

Welcome to space, me. It is as nuts as ever, you'll hardly know you were gone.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#31 - 2017-03-17 07:49:06 UTC
Doesn't even let you 'gain territory' any more than before. Just lets you stage your stuff a bit easier without having to resort to the old bubblesticks which were already used fairly liberally. These citadels, using maximum cheekiness, timing and a bit of luck during deployment, will also be able to survive a minimum of almost three weeks, or with bad timing and bad luck, a minimum of one week, six days of which without services.

That's the entire difference, really.

Nothing to complain about either, since everyone can use them the exact same way and it's not like they're even remotely difficult to take out. Without a good defense fleet, they're useless.
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#32 - 2017-03-17 08:31:15 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That said, presenting the Gallente with a war of attrition that they don't want to fight is the very essence of our conflict against them. They're richer and more numerous. Should we restrict our tactics to suit them?


That's an excellent point.

Before Upwell made the citadel available and thus made these tactics viable, the Federation controlled the war zone almost completely for - as I recall - nearly six years. Whatever one personally thinks of the grindingly dull counter needed, it seems to suit the State Protectorate's strengths rather well - and has lost the FDU a fair number of talented fleet commanders.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2017-03-17 14:37:54 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Or pieter, you could just read what I am saying in the first place.
Ayallah wrote:
Dropping citadels in mass to bypass the engagement rules of the CEWPA conflict.

Bypass Pieter. Meaning an alternative route or secondary path. You have been in militias, I have been in militias. At what point during that time were you able to dock in enemy space Pieter? Only with the advent of citadels. Why do you think militia pilots are constantly petitioning CONCORD about it?

If you are still confused as to who used the word illegal or any phrase "against the rules" I can educate you in how a neocom can search entire pages at a time for specific key words. For example. The word 'illegal' was used twice on the first page of this thread, both times by Degnar Oskold. His name does not remotely resemble mine. The use of the word 'against the law' in this thread was by you not me.

I do not want to "quibble" with you about things I never said Pieter. I want you to upgrade your ocular implants and engage your brain. I want you to stop this passive twisting of what I say to argue against some point you feel like arguing against. If you are incapable of that then I will be more than happy to teach you how to not see my posts on this forum in the future.

Or, we can take this picking of fights further to a far uglier conclusion. I prefer you learning to read and not creating problems neither of us need and I do not want.

I hope want the same.


Is that how we talk to each other now? I was responding to Degnar, initially, but you decided to leap out and get your feelings hurt - if that's what's going on here... Honestly, I have no idea anymore. Half the time you pretend not to have or understand feelings and the rest of the time you act like a schoolgirl.

Which is it?

As for the threats of violence, I have to repeat my public position that given the choice between dancing with you or playing with my son, I prefer the latter. My honour is no longer a thing I choose to defend publicly - in my experience a persons honour is pretty much inversely proportional to the amount of times it's mentioned in a communication.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#34 - 2017-03-17 16:02:24 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Let me get this straight - I have been away and I am a little confused of what is going on.

But, basically, we are upset because tactics exist that help people to go around the toy war limitations, to actually gain territory and to hold to it? Tactics that actually require force and planning to counter? Tactics that actually make it a war, not a sport?

Lovely.

Welcome to space, me. It is as nuts as ever, you'll hardly know you were gone.

It is not about tactics. It is about Gallente, who failed to destroy our real citadels (which we defended pretty good), destroyed some neutral ones and claimed they hurt us.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#35 - 2017-03-17 16:29:12 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Let me get this straight - I have been away and I am a little confused of what is going on.

But, basically, we are upset because tactics exist that help people to go around the toy war limitations, to actually gain territory and to hold to it? Tactics that actually require force and planning to counter? Tactics that actually make it a war, not a sport?

Lovely.

Welcome to space, me. It is as nuts as ever, you'll hardly know you were gone.

It is not about tactics. It is about Gallente, who failed to destroy our real citadels (which we defended pretty good), destroyed some neutral ones and claimed they hurt us.

I don't know, I'd consider 7 billion a bit painful. But I'm not exactly overflowing with ISK at the moment either, so....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2017-03-17 20:24:09 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Is that how we talk to each other now? I was responding to Degnar, initially, but you decided to leap out and get your feelings hurt - if that's what's going on here... Honestly, I have no idea anymore. Half the time you pretend not to have or understand feelings and the rest of the time you act like a schoolgirl.

Which is it?

As for the threats of violence, I have to repeat my public position that given the choice between dancing with you or playing with my son, I prefer the latter. My honour is no longer a thing I choose to defend publicly - in my experience a persons honour is pretty much inversely proportional to the amount of times it's mentioned in a communication.
Then you should quote Degnar, not me when you write these rebuttals.

I do not want this to become the norm between us Pieter, I do not want violence or threats. But know that now more than ever I am besieged. I have often been accused of being bellicose but right now my temper is short, I have less patience than usual for games and argument right now. I am not asking for sympathy but as a warning and an explanation. For now, I think I need to extract myself from this forum before this continues.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
James Syagrius
Reclamation
#37 - 2017-03-17 21:21:00 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Caldari militia terrorists...


Golden sir, absolutely golden.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#38 - 2017-03-17 23:00:40 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
I have often been accused of being bellicose

*Insert cruiser pun here*

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#39 - 2017-03-18 07:15:58 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Let me get this straight - I have been away and I am a little confused of what is going on.

But, basically, we are upset because tactics exist that help people to go around the toy war limitations, to actually gain territory and to hold to it? Tactics that actually require force and planning to counter? Tactics that actually make it a war, not a sport?

Lovely.

Welcome to space, me. It is as nuts as ever, you'll hardly know you were gone.

It is not about tactics. It is about Gallente, who failed to destroy our real citadels (which we defended pretty good), destroyed some neutral ones and claimed they hurt us.

I don't know, I'd consider 7 billion a bit painful. But I'm not exactly overflowing with ISK at the moment either, so....

Can you read next time first before replying, so I won't have to explain it for the second time?
These structures weren't ours, and it was painful to their owners - civilians, who operated them. When gallente committed these acts of piracy we didn't lose even a single isk.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
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