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Which Marauder is best for L4 missions?

Author
Banksy Rotsuda
Doomheim
#101 - 2017-03-09 20:51:01 UTC
Endecroix wrote:


Where in my post did I say I required or expected total immunity. English - do you do it? Strawman much?


There is to be NO ewar resist in bastion going forward. This is how bastion intended to be and now fixed.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#102 - 2017-03-09 21:20:29 UTC
Banksy Rotsuda wrote:
There is to be NO ewar resist in bastion going forward. This is how bastion intended to be and now fixed.

Statement based on what? CCP quote maybe?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#103 - 2017-03-09 21:48:49 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Statement based on what? CCP quote maybe?

Based on absolutely nothing. Don't feed the troll.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#104 - 2017-03-10 12:18:52 UTC
Quote:
Patch notes for YC 119.3 release
Modules:

Titan Weapon Disruption Resistances now correctly work against NPC Weapon Disruptors.
The Bastion module now gives full immunity to Weapon Disruptors (both player and NPC).


Yeey, so it was a bug.
Blink
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#105 - 2017-03-10 17:43:27 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Yeey, so it was a bug. Blink

And that was a troll. Make a point to note the troll.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Okumma Kashada
Weh Mir Oh Weh
#106 - 2017-03-10 18:27:26 UTC
Just thought I'd add my .02 isk. I just got my Pallladin today, so you can infer I'm not max skilled. Nothing below four except the marauder skill itself though.

My only mission so far was a lvl 4, Attack of the Drones, in Caldari space. From acceptance to completion was exactly 20 minutes. I warped in at 100km. Immediately activated the bastion and started firing. I literally never moved after that, ran my rapper maybe five times, no ship got closer than 43km, and I salvaged the field. Got 10 million in bounty too.

This is the only marauder I've flown so I can't compare. I can say if you're only running fours, and the other marauders are as good or better, it doesn't really matter which one you choose. Just pick the one that's either quickest to train into or you think looks coolest, whch ever is most important to you.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#107 - 2017-03-10 20:43:16 UTC
It really comes down to what region of space you operate out of, the skillset that maximizes your ship potential and last but not least - personal preference. From what I'm finding Marauders really don't offer anything that you can't get in a Pirate or Navy Faction hull - except a bit more cargo space, salvage capability, active tank and EW immunity.

Aside from a few missions, looting in general is in the toilet - so the benefit of active salvage component is debatable. They are prohibitively expensive (both in terms of ISk and training), and have very weak EHP. You can tank almost all missions with a few select modules on most battleship hulls - so the extra active tank on Marauders is overkill.

The only real benefit with Marauders is that the operational cost (ammunition) is typically 25-50% less (unless you opt for lasers, as crystals are dirt cheap). The thing I probably hate most (yes, there is a short list) with Marauders is Bastion. Having that 60-second timer root you in-place is just poor game mechanics.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
#108 - 2017-03-12 12:34:56 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
From what I'm finding Marauders really don't offer anything that you can't get in a Pirate or Navy Faction hull - except a bit more cargo space, salvage capability, active tank and EW immunity.

…and damage application, and sensor strength, and…

Okay, in terms of pure damage other hulls are better, nobody pretends it's otherwise. If you min-max for certain PVE activity you're more than likely to find an optimal solution not being a Marauder. But as a one man stop shop, they rule.

Quote:
Aside from a few missions, looting in general is in the toilet - so the benefit of active salvage component is debatable.

Glad you used the word "debatable". In which debate my side is this: when I loot and salvage I put it all in batches and select and sell some of the stuff only from time to time, thus I don't know how much actual money does it bring. but still after cleaning up after given mission quite often I see the total cargo as being valued by EVE as much or higher than the bounty payout from the same. It's not always like that but still it is significant in my subjective statistics.

Also price argument is mostly moot. Skills you train once. And the hull pays for itself in a month or two of mission running. Besides, it's not that Marauders are such expensive, it's the price of pirate hulls which tanked (I remember buying my Vindicator for 1bilion+).

Quote:
The thing I probably hate most (yes, there is a short list) with Marauders is Bastion. Having that 60-second timer root you in-place is just poor game mechanics.

It's called a trade off. This is what differentiates a game of rock-paper-scissors type from the-quest-for-I-WIN-button.

Also advance planning helps too, but I believe you know it already.

Funny fact, recently I realised that most of the time I enter bastion mode not for the tank (though it's nice touch), not for EWAR immunity/resistance (okay, for Blockade I do), but mostly for damage application bonus.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#109 - 2017-03-12 15:14:14 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
…and damage application, and sensor strength, and…

Okay, in terms of pure damage other hulls are better, nobody pretends it's otherwise. If you min-max for certain PVE activity you're more than likely to find an optimal solution not being a Marauder. But as a one man stop shop, they rule.

Other than sensor strength I wouldn't necessarily say damage application is better. On par, perhaps - but not better. I could cite examples like the Navy Raven, Nightmare, Vindicator...

hmskrecik wrote:
Glad you used the word "debatable". In which debate my side is this: when I loot and salvage I put it all in batches and select and sell some of the stuff only from time to time, thus I don't know how much actual money does it bring. but still after cleaning up after given mission quite often I see the total cargo as being valued by EVE as much or higher than the bounty payout from the same. It's not always like that but still it is significant in my subjective statistics.

Well, I've been doing this for quite a while - so I have a pretty good idea what it brings in and which missions are worth salvaging (and for what) and which aren't. You can argue the "one man's junk is another man's treasure" adage, but the reality is that one man's junk is usually just one man's junk. It's been proven that in the vast majority of instances it's more profitable to simply run another mission for the bounties, reward and LP.

I'm not going to recommend that one play style is for everyone - that's what makes the game interesting. If you want to salvage missions for a pittance who am I to suggest otherwise.

hmskrecik wrote:
Also price argument is mostly moot. Skills you train once. And the hull pays for itself in a month or two of mission running. Besides, it's not that Marauders are such expensive, it's the price of pirate hulls which tanked (I remember buying my Vindicator for 1bilion+).

It's a billion+ ISK hull with less raw EHP than most T1 battleships. Pirate Faction hulls are super cheap now so the cost comparison isn't a valid argument anymore. I could also add that because of this Marauders are typically a gank magnet, but I digress.

hmskrecik wrote:
It's called a trade off. This is what differentiates a game of rock-paper-scissors type from the-quest-for-I-WIN-button. Also advance planning helps too, but I believe you know it already.

Yes, I do realize it's a trade-off. That doesn't mean that having to anchor your ship still doesn't royally suck. Maybe you like being stationary in most of your missions. I prefer fluid movement.

hmskrecik wrote:
Funny fact, recently I realised that most of the time I enter bastion mode not for the tank (though it's nice touch), not for EWAR immunity/resistance (okay, for Blockade I do), but mostly for damage application bonus.

There's no damage application bonus - there's a range bonus. Entering Bastion increases your range and your potential damage (excluding the Golem). It doesn't improve tracking, it doesn't improve target painting and it doesn't reduce target speed or signature radius.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
#110 - 2017-03-12 17:50:51 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I could cite examples like the Navy Raven, Nightmare, Vindicator...

You can't cite Vindicator. At quite reasonable ranges when you're at optimal with Kronos, you're at falloff with Vindi, and subsequently when with the former you're at falloff, with latter you're at deep falloff. If it's not a damage application issue then I don't know what is.

That being said, in my experience Nightmare and Paladin are on par in this regard.

Quote:
It's been proven that in the vast majority of instances it's more profitable to simply run another mission for the bounties, reward and LP.

Which proof I suppose didn't take into account tanking LP market, which you yourself have been lamenting in GD, haven't you? :)

Quote:
It's a billion+ ISK hull with less raw EHP than most T1 battleships. Pirate Faction hulls are super cheap now so the cost comparison isn't a valid argument anymore. I could also add that because of this Marauders are typically a gank magnet, but I digress.

What EHP has to do with the matter? Esp. with active übertank. And being a gank magnet is rather a function of fit pimpage, not of the price of the hull itself.

Quote:
Yes, I do realize it's a trade-off. That doesn't mean that having to anchor your ship still doesn't royally suck. Maybe you like being stationary in most of your missions. I prefer fluid movement.

Let's agree to disagree here. I have no issue with being stationary for a while.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#111 - 2017-03-12 18:08:36 UTC
The Vindicator has a 90% web which allows it to hit any most short-range targets with rails. The extra mid slot gives it roughly the same range as a Kronos when not in Bastion. Damage (not including a full complement of sentry drones) far exceeds the Kronos. As for ganking, Marauders are routinely shot just to pad killboards (bling or not).

The Machariel is far superior to the Vargur in every respect - not too mention that it has 4x the drone capacity and can mitigate a large percentage of damage just by moving. I won't even touch on the superior war speed and maneuverability. Every PvE activity you can do in a Vargur I can do better in my Machariel.

The Rattlesnake can deal almost twice the effective DPS of a Golem. I could go on with more examples but what would be the point? When Pirate hulls were a billion ISK it wasn't even a consideration, but you can get most for less than a Faction Navy hull now...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
#112 - 2017-03-12 22:23:28 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The Vindicator has a 90% web which allows it to hit any most short-range targets with rails. The extra mid slot gives it roughly the same range as a Kronos when not in Bastion. Damage (not including a full complement of sentry drones) far exceeds the Kronos.

With the exception of couple of missions the web will be mostly unused, so it's the mid slot wasted. With such midslot or not, Vindicator does not have hull 50% falloff bonus, which is why Kronos can snipe with Antimatter and which is why there is no Blaster Vindi for missions running. Also using sentry drones does not mix well with your idea of fluid movement.

And to the rest of your arguments, I'm not sure what is the thesis you're defending. If it's the one that pirate ships perform better than Marauders then you're barking wrong tree as I'm all with you there. Marauders however have their place too: even if worse they still perform very well and if anything, they are just more convenient to use. Whether this is good enough reason to use these ships, it's for anyone to decide by themselves.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#113 - 2017-03-13 02:07:53 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
With the exception of couple of missions the web will be mostly unused, so it's the mid slot wasted. With such midslot or not, Vindicator does not have hull 50% falloff bonus, which is why Kronos can snipe with Antimatter and which is why there is no Blaster Vindi for missions running. Also using sentry drones does not mix well with your idea of fluid movement.

And to the rest of your arguments, I'm not sure what is the thesis you're defending. If it's the one that pirate ships perform better than Marauders then you're barking wrong tree as I'm all with you there. Marauders however have their place too: even if worse they still perform very well and if anything, they are just more convenient to use. Whether this is good enough reason to use these ships, it's for anyone to decide by themselves.

With a 90% web you can even hit frigates with rails and sentry drones, so there is that. My point is that it's a single module which still leaves you with the same number of mid slots as the Kronos. Yes, the Kronos does have the extra falloff - which is typically overkill if you're running rails. What I don't like about the Vindicator is the lack of utility highs so you need to utilize rigs to augment your drones.

I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#114 - 2017-03-13 06:46:41 UTC
Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Sentenced 1989
#115 - 2017-03-13 12:45:27 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

The Machariel is far superior to the Vargur in every respect - not too mention that it has 4x the drone capacity and can mitigate a large percentage of damage just by moving. I won't even touch on the superior war speed and maneuverability. Every PvE activity you can do in a Vargur I can do better in my Machariel.


I have to semi agree with this. There are few instances where Vargur is better (Sansha L4 Blockade due to targets spawning at 90km and 70km diagonally from entry position - so positioning at one spawn point puts the other one at +130km and final Caldari epic arc mission with 100% jamm chance from 2 elite cruiser).

However, I must admit, after a year of Bastion Vargur I was having way to much fun in Machariel. A bit less range, but pulse MWD and drop sentry when standing still beats Vargurs damage and because you can move more easily you don't care that much about those few km range from Vargurs bastion. And yea, Mach has this nice niche that you can outrun frigates / webbers. Only thing is - if you don't know how to use Machariel and how gun tracking works, stick to AB instead of MWD because wrong direction of MWD will make your own speed outtrack your guns :D

And one other plus is if you want to push your ship - you don't go cap stable and having crappy connection and getting socket closed on Vargur in bastion which is not currently running booster is fun to say at least.
Sentenced 1989
#116 - 2017-03-13 12:50:00 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder.


How is that relevant? I can have multiple 100's rifters for price of one :D
They also do more dps then one, but then again how are you going to pilot it?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#117 - 2017-03-13 13:52:09 UTC
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
How is that relevant? I can have multiple 100's rifters for price of one :D
They also do more dps then one, but then again how are you going to pilot it?

Everything you posted on your previous post. Why bother with high priced marauder when faction BS can do it the same or even better.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
#118 - 2017-03-13 16:58:10 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
With a 90% web you can even hit frigates with rails and sentry drones, so there is that. My point is that it's a single module which still leaves you with the same number of mid slots as the Kronos. Yes, the Kronos does have the extra falloff - which is typically overkill if you're running rails.

I, on the other side, quite often shoot in falloff. Especially with Javelin ammo, be it when I don't want to waste time switching, or when taking advantage of better tracking.

Quote:
I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion

So Marauders have been downgraded from must-use to pick-your-poison category. How does it make it bad game design?
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
#119 - 2017-03-13 16:59:36 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Don't forget about marauders price. Then cost 10 times than faction BS to manufacture. I can have few rattlesnakes for a one marauder.

Yeah? And how many of each you lose a month when running missions?
Banksy Rotsuda
Doomheim
#120 - 2017-03-13 18:53:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


I just think that the for the required skill training and cost Marauders are no longer the end-all be-all for mission running. Especially when they got hit with the refit nerf while in Bastion


We are definately in agreement here. Marauders should be removed from game as they are no longer needed.