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Mining (ore) in wormholes

Author
Tughai Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2017-03-08 14:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tughai Daphiti
Currently there seems to be only one kind of mining in WH-Space: Gas - Ventures don't require a lot of skills, are cheap, warpstabbed and have a quick align-time

Ore is, in my opinion, crap.

Mining Barges are also quite cheap but they do not have any of the survival capabilities a Venture or Procurer has. While that is not perfect, the real problem stems from the fact that Ore-Anomalies are always visible. The only chance to have to see the ship coming in (from an old Sig) is the split-second between jump and CovOpscloak. I have repeatedly seen an Astero uncloak trying to catch me while I warp out of a belt ~30 seconds (Picking up drones + accelerating) after a new Signature pops. And is there a reward for this immensely increased risk compared to Null (a LOT more, safer)? - if so, then I have missed it.

The easiest change would be to make it necessary to scan down Ore-Anomalies again or to increase the reward mining brings. Currently mining in a WH is pretty much useless (and basically non-existent).

Is this just my impression and I am salty from my recent loss or is it really the general Problem I perceive it to be? Any other approaches to fix this Problem?

/edit: Procedure when catching a Miner:
Jump in
Dscan - see a Barge/Excavator (maybe even with Drones)
Warp to Ore Anom at 100
Warp to Asteroid near Target at 10
Decloak, Tackle & Shred
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#2 - 2017-03-08 14:52:46 UTC
Most people just roll connections if they want to mine and peace out once a new sig pops up. It's relatively safe to do.

Still, mining in wormholes is pretty low income.
erg cz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-03-08 15:46:37 UTC
Current mining meta is not for people, who is active at keyboard. If you are sitting at keyboard you can easely make more ISK from other PVE activities, that you simpy buy minerals you would otherwise refine from mining. And you will have plenty of ISK left.

But WH is not for AFK activities. So problem is in meta or the place. You want to mine in current meta - go to null or high sec. You want to mine in WH - force CCP to change the meta by implementing some or all suggestions published in that thread. Get rid of stationary asteroids in WH - implement comets or ring mining... Good luck chasing oversized AB miner if you are still under cloack.
Tughai Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-03-08 15:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tughai Daphiti
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Most people just roll connections if they want to mine and peace out once a new sig pops up. It's relatively safe to do.

Still, mining in wormholes is pretty low income.


Old Sigs are still quite dangerous.

It is a low Income but I occasionally work from home and while playing actively is not really possible, paying attention to the second Monitor is easy and creates some income. As soon as you are able to pay attention there are usually more lucrative things to do. The crazy thing: its often easier to import stuff from Highsec even though its a big hassle and you have to roll countless wormholes to make it happen

/e: I like the "adjust the lasers to follow the vein" idea

erg cz wrote:
Current mining meta is not for people, who is active at keyboard. If you are sitting at keyboard you can easely make more ISK from other PVE activities, that you simpy buy minerals you would otherwise refine from mining. And you will have plenty of ISK left.

It just "feels" wrong when you are living somewhere in the middle of nowhere and you still go back to the big trading hub to get some shells instead of producing them yourself.

I agree that there might be a bigger problem in general but currently the easy fix would be, imho, to make mining sites invisible again.
Asika Koraka
Dragon Factory
#5 - 2017-03-08 15:53:59 UTC
mining asteroids in wormhole space is not that terrible,it takes alot of patience but if you have average grou you can do couple of procurers and porpoise for boosting. mining with retrievers is problematic as no tank ofc u can hull tank them but they wont survive for too long

low-class ore anoms that are best for mining?
1. common frontier deposit
2. unexceptional frontier deposit
3. uncommon frontier deposit

what you need?
5 - 10 players with barges and 1 - 3 scots to watch holes.
and agan why no for exhumers? this will even more attract potential hostile player to gank you.
harvester mining drones? NO thats going worse than exhumer parts someone can just warp cruiser or destroyer with small smartbombs and cause mass damage,they dont have just to kill you but your expensive drones.

t1 barges? sure procurers and in last resort - retrievers. if you really have strong group of players you could invest in skiffs but that is even more risky, you just have to keep rolling the holes . to keep mining safely

what class of wormholes mining can be "safe" at some point?
any c1 and c3 holes due to single static [easy to roll] and you can quickly eradicate roaming holes

how to roll c1 wormholes?
method a) higgs anchor rigged gnosis

rig slots 2xx t1 core defense field extenders
low slots 3x nanofibers t2 and 2 inertia stas t2 dcu t2

med slots 2x medium shield extenders t2 2x adaptive invuls t2 100mn afterburner compact type cap recharger t2 x1

high slots - what you prefer but primary is cloak/probe launcher plus probes

that gnosis natural speed will be down to around 35 - 50 with 100mn ab running should be 154-160

fasteer gnosis less tank 2x t2 hyperspatial rigs 1x higgs 3x nanofibers 3x inertias 500mn mwd compact mwd
[if cant fit then remove one inertia and put reactor control unit t2 ] some cap rechargers/boosters [if hav eoungh pg/cpu

high slots cloak and probe launcher-probes

that gnosis will be able to go around 650 - 700ms

why higgsed gnosis?
natural gnosis mass is 10mil kg higgs double it to 20m kg 500mn mwd or 100mn ab makes you 120mil kg with ab or mwd running

cheaper version? higgsed plated and 100mn ab vexor or arbitrator [generally cruiser any tye of this can do]

higgsed yacht? NI becuz higgs kill interdiction nullification effect,ofc for rolling your hol n110 might be good but rolling anything else might be troublemaking

HELP i have frig hole spawned - what now?
generally notthing wait the 16 hours off then it dies and mining with frig hole open is dangerous as some frigates destroyers and even heavy interdiction cruisers can hurt you
================================
rolling the c2 and c3 hole you can use higgsed abaddon for ths,orca is quite good but takes longer to turn around but is better as unhiggsed orca is 150mil kg or so higgsed 300m kg now put 500mn compact mwd on top of this very few jumps and hole is gone with orcas,battleship part taking longer but still is less painful when ganked,, cruisers are there as good as battleships and insane cheap to use if you are worrying about cost of hole rolling go for cruisers.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#6 - 2017-03-08 16:56:56 UTC
The above are pretty good answers. I'd say you don't have to scout holes if you roll them, but it sounds like people that are mining would rather watch a hole they know is open to one that may be open.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#7 - 2017-03-09 14:29:53 UTC
Wormhole mining is super safe and has decent isk/hour relative to the low effort, provided you use several accounts.

Basic necessity is that you close every wormhole before you start. If you are not sure if the static or another outgoing wh has been opened, close it to make sure. Using scouts is dumb because if you have that account active, a character from that account should sit in a retriever or exhumer and be in the belt mining, not sit idle on a wormhole where he doesn't generate income.

Once that is done, there is 100% safety. If a new sig appears, immediately warp to citadel/pos. Even if someone instantly warps to the ore site after entering system, he will not catch you because the asteroids are not exactly at zero in the anomaly but usually 30-50 km away.

Of course this only works if you react immediately to any new sig, so no real afking. But I have a 49 inch 4k screen where I can do all kinds of stuff in other windows and still have the portion of the EVE client always visible where I see new sigs.

.

Tughai Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2017-03-09 14:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tughai Daphiti
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Wormhole mining is super safe and has decent isk/hour relative to the low effort, provided you use several accounts.

Basic necessity is that you close every wormhole before you start. If you are not sure if the static or another outgoing wh has been opened, close it to make sure. Using scouts is dumb because if you have that account active, a character from that account should sit in a retriever or exhumer and be in the belt mining, not sit idle on a wormhole where he doesn't generate income.

Maybe I don't understand this correctly but you cannot close a static and a static still poses a major threat. Many wormhole-hunting -corps roll their hole and scan down the new hole-tree 3 or 4 deep, so they can still come out of your static.
Terrorfrodo wrote:

Once that is done, there is 100% safety. If a new sig appears, immediately warp to citadel/pos. Even if someone instantly warps to the ore site after entering system, he will not catch you because the asteroids are not exactly at zero in the anomaly but usually 30-50 km away.

that's why you (as ganker) warp to the belt at 100 and then warp to the asteroid where the miner is located
Taurean Eltanin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2017-03-09 15:15:05 UTC
If you roll your static and then DO NOT WARP to the new signature, there is no K162 generated for a certain minimum period. It therefore cannot be accessed from the other side, and your system is locked down until the K162 is generated, or a new signature spawns.

If you like reading about low sec piracy or wormhole pvp, you might enjoy my blog.

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#10 - 2017-03-09 19:45:42 UTC
Both statements here regarding k162 spawning are wrong, which is very pleasing. Seems Fozzie's little changes sowed profound confusion that still hasn't been cleared up, very good. It's like the good old days in 2009/2010 when 90% of people in w-space were clueless about wh mechanics and knowing better was a real advantage :)

.

Zarek Kree
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#11 - 2017-03-09 19:49:28 UTC
Taurean Eltanin wrote:
If you roll your static and then DO NOT WARP to the new signature, there is no K162 generated for a certain minimum period. It therefore cannot be accessed from the other side, and your system is locked down until the K162 is generated, or a new signature spawns.


This is partially correct. If you roll your static and then don't warp to it, it will NEVER generate a K162. If you warp to it but don't jump through, it will generate a K162 once it has 15 hours life remaining. So you can effectively lock down your system for all but incoming K162s (that will pop up as new sigs).

The K162 spawning mechanics are frequently not understood by even old time worm holers. You'll see some dissent, but these posts by CCP Fozzie from 2014 are the last dev comments on the mechanic.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4908046#post4908046

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4908256#post4908256
Dolly Varden
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2017-03-09 22:31:11 UTC
You're right wormhole mining used to be a thing before you didn't have to scan down the sites. Now people don't bother and might only bother if there's nothing else to do at the time. Plus with removal of off grid boosting nobody is going to be boosting those retrievers.
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#13 - 2017-03-10 00:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael1995
I don't know what you guys are talking about, usually at least every couple days I see retrievers/covetors/hulks/mackinaws dying, usually along a boosting porpoise. There are also Rorquals out and about mining all the time.

Selling WH CFC Standings 10b/month for +10 with: Lazerhawks, Hard Knocks, Overwatch This, Many Vacancies, Golden Showers, Friendly Probes, Isogen Memed.

Join up for swag C3 Gila/Osprey ratting fleets daily! We also rent C2s out with CV effect!

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#14 - 2017-03-10 09:01:06 UTC
Dolly Varden wrote:
You're right wormhole mining used to be a thing before you didn't have to scan down the sites. Now people don't bother and might only bother if there's nothing else to do at the time. Plus with removal of off grid boosting nobody is going to be boosting those retrievers.

And why is that? Porpoise is awesome. One Porpoise and three retrievers is already much better than just four retrievers, and the ship is cheap, aligns fast, warps fast, decent ore bay, so can also do the hauling.

.

Trixi Laminer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-03-10 09:18:33 UTC
Porpoise is about the cost of noctis, pretty cheap compared to orca and aligns to warp like semi slow bc.
And t1 barges aren't to bad just fit them t1.
If you want to be really difficult to catch you can have a few ventures or t2 variants mininng and a command destroyer that gives boosts, not as good boosts as porpoise but still something! Big smile
with setup like that you could go ninja mining from hisec to wh.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#16 - 2017-03-10 13:57:44 UTC
Tughai Daphiti wrote:
Currently there seems to be only one kind of mining in WH-Space: Gas


Not true. Except ore mining only happens in wormholes that are totally controlled. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen in any wormhole you happen to be in BECAUSE you are in it. Usually every hole is closed except the static, which is monitored. If anything comes through the static (or a new sig appears), the miners return to base and switch to PvP ships to hunt you down.
Tughai Daphiti
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2017-03-17 10:55:48 UTC
From what I have recently heard there are 2 way to mine in a WH:

Paranoia:
roll holes, scouts, ... - usually a mining op

Risk Management:
Empty Clone, T1 Mining Barge fully insured. - solo miner, the Plan is to accept the inevitability of death and get at least ~30 mins of mining to break even
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#18 - 2017-03-17 22:47:22 UTC
Tughai Daphiti wrote:
From what I have recently heard there are 2 way to mine in a WH:

Paranoia:
roll holes, scouts, ... - usually a mining op

Risk Management:
Empty Clone, T1 Mining Barge fully insured. - solo miner, the Plan is to accept the inevitability of death and get at least ~30 mins of mining to break even

What you call Paranoia vs. Risk Management I'd call being smart and know how to play the game vs. being a sheep that is farmed by the wolves. Fits the pattern that you seem to think that using scouts and rolling holes somehow probably is very complicated and lots of work, which it isn't.

For me part of the fun of the game is exposing myself to danger from other players, but doing it right so that I don't actually get killed by them... most of the time. Every m**** can just sit in a belt or anomaly and go afk and hope for the best.

Anyway a t1 mining barge means terrible isk/h and is just wasting time unless you're a newbie who has no better ways to make money, so it doesn't even make sense economically.

.

Octavian Vanderhoolt
FTL Deliveries
#19 - 2017-03-18 02:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Octavian Vanderhoolt
Mining in wormholes is so much more profitable than mining in highsec that the loss of an occasional ship is well worth it.

Mine in a t1 barge. T2, orcas, porpoises etc will attract too much attention. Procurers are often used as bait ships and have bonuses to drone damage, and most cloaky ships are either fragile or expensive, lot of ships will pass you by.

Mine far away from the warp in point, obviously.

Check the incoming wormholes. If they lead to active systems, or too many systems, don't mine. If, for example, you have only a LS static to a system with 1 or 2 persons in local, you are somewhat safe. I personally didn't roll holes, since the system I was in took 50+ jumps to close the static.

As soon as you see ships or probes on d-scan warp away. Most gankers will probe you down, even if they have a cloaky ship. This surprised me.

A finally just be prepared to lose your ship once in a while. I was actually surprised at how infrequently I was attacked (or at least saw someone on grid coming towards me). It was maybe once every 50 or 100 hours of mining, seriously, and half the time I got away. Mining ships paid for themselves many times over.

Also, as a miner you WANT to live dangerously. Mining is in itself such boring gameplay that people attacking you are what keeps it interesting. I'd MUCH rather make 20 million isk/hour mining in a wormhole and lose a ship every 20 hours than be almost perfectly safe in high sec making 5 million isk/hour.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#20 - 2017-03-18 03:06:35 UTC
Octavian Vanderhoolt wrote:
As soon as you see ships or probes on d-scan warp away. Most gankers will probe you down, even if they have a cloaky ship. This surprised me.

Probing down mining ships makes sense most of the time. That is because if the miner does it right, he was in a system with no open wormhole until the would-be ganker rolled into his system. Now if the miner is paying full attention, then there is no way at all the ganker will catch him, because he is already in warp to his pos or citadel after seeing the new sig.

However, if the miner is somewhat competent but still afk or at least not paying full attention for a moment, which tends to happen a lot due to the nature of mining, there is a good chance he will need a little while to notice the new signature and warp out. For the ganker, warping cloaked to the ore anomaly first in the hope of sneaking up on the miner takes way too much time. Even a semi-afk miner will almost certainly notice the new sig during that time and escape. But with a combat scan, the ganker will be right on top of the miner in a matter of 20-60 seconds.

.

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