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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Let's talk about Suitonia's suggestions to improve FW

Author
Darth Magic
Shadow Order of the Stars
#161 - 2017-03-05 15:45:54 UTC
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#162 - 2017-03-06 02:41:11 UTC
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#163 - 2017-03-06 04:22:59 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#164 - 2017-03-06 04:35:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


I'm not sure it does.

People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them.

People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing.

The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#165 - 2017-03-06 05:37:44 UTC
Scialt wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


I'm not sure it does.

People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them.

People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing.

The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it.
I know it does because I've been on both ends of the stick and have had these sorts of discussions with the main content creators in my militia for the past several years.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#166 - 2017-03-06 05:52:37 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.
So? Farmers are gonna farm.

If you're worried about players switching sides, then you might want to put restrictions on accounts and ip addresses like they do with alphas.

If you're worried about the winning/losing side making too much/little isk/hour, don't. You don't need an incredible amount of isk to play FW. A side at Tier 1 makes more than enough isk to stay in the fight. Plus the isk/LP changes over time, and the cost in LP to keep a Tier at a higher level is quite a bit more.

If you're worried about FW being too "one-sided", don't. isk/lp goes down if too much LP is generated by one side. At some point it becomes more profitable for alts to be on the "losing" side. And then the pendulum swings. Without this sort of dynamic in play, the warzone would stagnate and fewer people would care about pushing systems.






ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
#167 - 2017-03-06 12:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Suitonia wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick. T1 vs T5 is more than a 6x payout difference. When a T5 O-Plexer can make 160m/hour in a frigate, but his counterpart is lucky to make 30m/hour assuming both are uncontested, there is a huge difference, and instead of encouraging the horse to go faster, the rider simply gets on the other horse.



Then you maybe looking at the wrong warzone while amarr / minmatar maybe in constant flux of tier 4-5 and what not that is down to it being a pure farm zone.

The Gallente / caldari warzone is nothing like that snd most timnes only ever reaches t3 for oneside and maybe t1-2 dipping for the losing side but constantly fought over. Yes they have some farmers im not saying they dont but they dont effect the day to day stuff even a quarter as much as the opposite warzone

Also most LP comes from missions any farmer worth thier salt wouldnt be in plex, the problem is nothing like it was maybe 2 to 3 years ago you seem to have old information

Your last comments showed exactly how out of touch you are with the demographic and have only listened to what your goon friends have told you who have farm alts in minnie / amarr
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#168 - 2017-03-06 13:03:47 UTC
farmers doesn't help donate LPs also to upgrade systems (to up tier), so....

Just Add Water

Aves Asio
#169 - 2017-03-06 14:29:36 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Then you maybe looking at the wrong warzone while amarr / minmatar maybe in constant flux of tier 4-5 and what not that is down to it being a pure farm zone.

The Gallente / caldari warzone is nothing like that snd most timnes only ever reaches t3 for oneside and maybe t1-2 dipping for the losing side but constantly fought over. Yes they have some farmers im not saying they dont but they dont effect the day to day stuff even a quarter as much as the opposite warzone

Also most LP comes from missions any farmer worth thier salt wouldnt be in plex, the problem is nothing like it was maybe 2 to 3 years ago you seem to have old information

Your last comments showed exactly how out of touch you are with the demographic and have only listened to what your goon friends have told you who have farm alts in minnie / amarr


so everything is ok, gal-cal is healthy and nobody gives a **** about amar-min peasants...
ALUCARD 1208
Did he say Jump
#170 - 2017-03-06 14:53:42 UTC
Aves Asio
#171 - 2017-03-06 15:02:52 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
... At some point it becomes more profitable for alts to be on the "losing" side. And then the pendulum swings.

Farmers have the power to swing the pendulum and to keep it in the air for a long time. This is an issue. Ofc you cant stop the farmers but we should limit their impact on the rest of us.
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#172 - 2017-03-06 15:03:09 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Scialt wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Darth Magic wrote:
This has already been said, but I think the Tier system for rewards is bad. And I agree with the CSM wanting to get rid of it.

Make it all Even instead... Rewards should be higher for higher ranked members of the militia, encouraging loyalty and participation.

The Tiers give both sides a reason to push for action in the warzone.


I'm not sure it does.

People looking for isk from plexes are often not looking for fights. Some might take them if they come... but they aren't LOOKING for them.

People looking for fights rarely care enough to wait for a plex to finish. They're hunting others who are plexing.

The desire for ships exploding is what drives combat in FW. Even for those wanting "action"... the tier stuff is what they do in order to FUND their action. It's not what drives it... because quite honestly it's probably more effective to run from combat if you want to raise your tier than to engage in it.
I know it does because I've been on both ends of the stick and have had these sorts of discussions with the main content creators in my militia for the past several years.



Care to explain it then?

It seems to me that those who care most about LP rewards are the rabbit plexers. Perhaps I'm coming from a different perspective as someone who's income isn't primarily from FW... I only really come to FW space for PvP opportunities. If I'm plexing... I'm doing so because I wan't to control the engagement range with whoever comes into the plex with me. The tier isn't much of a factor.

Those who've actually engaged in combat with me don't seem to be caring much about it either... which is why I'm confused in you saying the Tier gives a reason to push for action. It doesn't feel like it to me (though I'll admit my experience is limited).
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#173 - 2017-03-06 16:54:43 UTC
Scialt wrote:



Care to explain it then?

It seems to me that those who care most about LP rewards are the rabbit plexers. Perhaps I'm coming from a different perspective as someone who's income isn't primarily from FW... I only really come to FW space for PvP opportunities. If I'm plexing... I'm doing so because I wan't to control the engagement range with whoever comes into the plex with me. The tier isn't much of a factor.

Those who've actually engaged in combat with me don't seem to be caring much about it either... which is why I'm confused in you saying the Tier gives a reason to push for action. It doesn't feel like it to me (though I'll admit my experience is limited).

If you're interested in just pvp, my experience says that you want the tier level as low as possible. That leads to more pvp because the other side thinks it's winning.

But it's not a "farm" OR "fight" question. It's a "farm while you fight" question.

wrt tier levels - when enough of our guys want to make more LP, we boost the tiers. When we want to maximize the isk/lp we lower the tier. When we want to capture systems, we try to boost it. When we feel like the warzone is getting a bit out of hand, we'll decide to boost it too. On the rare occasion where there's an opportunity to take the entire warzone, we'll boost it as high as we can. In general, however, you don't want to boost the Tier levels for no reason because you'll crash the FW LP market.

Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.

Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#174 - 2017-03-06 17:09:10 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:


Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.



I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on.

Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash.

I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#175 - 2017-03-06 17:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Suitonia wrote:

The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick.


Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP.

Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min.

So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5.

This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since, by virtue of their existence, they have no problem with the isk they are making its easy to exclude them from consideration.

Sultonias posts reminds me of that other guy who said he was a perfect candidate to represent FW at CSM due to him rolling a farming character for a couple of months during infernos first iteration. Claiming to represent FW while seeming to have a shallow understanding of how things currently work, is nothing more than a blatant grab for cheap, currently unaligned votes.

How can anyone expect good ideas from someone who thinks that tier 5 automatically gives 6+x the isk than tier 1?

Neither tier 1 or tier 5 give any type of payout. You are rewarded with LP, that LP has a variable value and its down to player choices how much that is worth. Even the worst choice is still one of the better incomes in EVE.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#176 - 2017-03-06 17:24:39 UTC
Scialt wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:


Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.



I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on.

Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash.

I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.



We might be able to give you some suggestions about how to find/get PVP if you post with your main. I assume this isn't it since it has never destroyed a ship and has only lost 1.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#177 - 2017-03-06 17:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Scialt wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:


Lots of reasons to try to manipulate the tier levels, and to do so you need to capture systems. Capturing systems leads to pvp, which is what we want too.



I guess this is the part I'm still not completely sold on.

Does capturing systems generally lead to PvP. I've taken part in 2 system captures... and in both cases the opposition barely showed up. A week of people yelling to plex a certain system... then go shoot at the hub for a bit. the only people who showed up were a couple of neutrals trying to snipe for a little while on the IHUB bash.

I don't seem to get a lot of PvP when I engage in plexing games... I get it when I search for it (jumping between plexes until I find someone in one who wants to fight). I get SOME... but it's much less frequent for me.

Capturing the right systems does. In general, the more the other side decides they care about a given system, and the more they are active in your TZ, the larger volume of fights.

If the other side doesn't care, then there's nothing you can do about it and you're not going to get fights. But that dynamic applies to every other aspect of this game as well.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2017-03-06 19:32:57 UTC
To be fair though XG, when we're pushing tiers, we're rarely going after systems that will give us meaningful fights. Every home system we've sieged in the past few years (correct me if I'm wrong) has been for reasons other than pushing the tier for economic reasons. It's almost exclusively been about bragging rights or creating content. If you're trying to push your tier up, you're going for the backwoods systems that no one really cares about, because that's the most efficient way of doing it.

I think the current FW mechanics are the best we've ever had, but that's a really low bar and I think they need to be improved. Cal/Gal isn't as bad as Min/Amarr because of cultural issues, but at it's heart it's still not very healthy in terms of game mechanics. We just have a little more group loyalty over here, barring a couple corps over in Min/Amarr FW.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#179 - 2017-03-06 19:51:01 UTC
Scialt welcome to the huge club of players who joined fw and wondered wtf is this.

Nobody cares about the vast majority of systems and nobody has for many years. That is because you best win sov by running away.

You do have to choose between farming or fighting if you want to be halfway efficient at either. That is why the top vp gainers for a day or a week are almost always flying stabbed or empty ships.

Don't let Crosi and XG make you disbelieve what you see with your own eyes.


Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Suitonia wrote:

The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick.


Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP.

Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min.

So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5.

This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since, by virtue of their existence, they have no problem with the isk they are making its easy to exclude them from consideration.

[insult to suitonia removed]



I don't think that the fw pays too much. But if you just wanted isk you would be foolish to spend allot of time plexing at tier one when you can plex at a higher tier and simply hold onto your lp until the market swings your way. Minmatar are at tier 1 and they can not get 2k lp for buy orders for any items the other stores don't have.

To talk about this in depth would mean going into disparates in the lp store etc. Its pretty clear Gallente have an excellent lp store (eg. nomens buy orders are less than half those of navy vexors yet we still see 50% more vexors being sold. and lets not even look at the huge disparity for lol navy caracals and ospreys.) of and for the longest time Gallente had the hardest fw missions which meant that there aren't as many people with as much lp ready to crash the market.

So it is not surprising their lp store has not flattened out like so many others. But even if there is some slight fluctuation based on tier level there is no reason any of the farmers must sell when the market is low. So of course large numbers of farmers are going to go with the feast instead of the stick and gain huge amounts of sov for the winning side.

To say that since the farmers don't mind the amount of isk they receive, we can ignore them, demonstrates you do not understand the problems so many others see with faction war.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc
Templis CALSF
#180 - 2017-03-06 19:58:56 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Scialt welcome to the huge club of players who joined fw and wondered wtf is this.

Nobody cares about the vast majority of systems and nobody has for many years. That is because you best win sov by running away.

You do have to choose between farming or fighting if you want to be halfway efficient at either. That is why the top vp gainers for a day or a week are almost always flying stabbed or empty ships.

Don't let Crosi and XG make you disbelieve what you see with your own eyes.


Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Suitonia wrote:

The problem with the Tier system as it stands is that it's not a carrot on a stick, it's a feast on a stick.


Selling at tier 5 usually gets around 400 - 500 ISK/LP.

Selling at tier 1 usually gets over 2000 ISK/LP min.

So in reality most people at tier 1 will be earning around 2/3 of someone at tier 5.

This is subject to market variables and ignores those that wait until their LP farmed at tier 5 is worth more due to their militia falling from tier 5 to tier 1. Since, by virtue of their existence, they have no problem with the isk they are making its easy to exclude them from consideration.

[insult to suitonia removed]



I don't think that the fw pays too much. But if you just wanted isk you would be foolish to spend allot of time plexing at tier one when you can plex at a higher tier and simply hold onto your lp until the market swings your way. Minmatar are at tier 1 and they can not get 2k lp for buy orders for any items the other stores don't have.

To talk about this in depth would mean going into disparates in the lp store etc. Its pretty clear Gallente have an excellent lp store (eg. nomens buy orders are less than half those of navy vexors yet we still see 50% more vexors being sold. and lets not even look at the huge disparity for lol navy caracals and ospreys.) of and for the longest time Gallente had the hardest fw missions which meant that there aren't as many people with as much lp ready to crash the market.

So it is not surprising their lp store has not flattened out like so many others. But even if there is some slight fluctuation based on tier level there is no reason any of the farmers must sell when the market is low. So of course large numbers of farmers are going to go with the feast instead of the stick and gain huge amounts of sov for the winning side.

To say that since the farmers don't mind the amount of isk they receive, we can ignore them, demonstrates you do not understand the problems so many others see with faction war.


This is so true. I've been stuck selling datacores for god knows how long since our faction ships except the hookbill suck since lolmissiles. CCPlz buff caldari/missiles.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!