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Grouping Mining Lasers
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Yenne
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#1 - 2017-03-04 02:42:25 UTC
We can group offensive lasers and missiles, but we can't group lasers for the extraction of ore? They're basically the same things used for different purposes, so why shouldn't we be able to group mining lasers with each other?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-03-04 03:33:37 UTC
I'd like to be able to group everything.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3 - 2017-03-04 03:42:49 UTC
Grouping lasers can only make you less efficient at mining. Surprised you want to do it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2017-03-04 03:59:35 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Grouping lasers can only make you less efficient at mining. Surprised you want to do it.

I don't see why EVE should prevent us from making lousy choices if we want to.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Cade Windstalker
#5 - 2017-03-04 04:34:50 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Grouping lasers can only make you less efficient at mining. Surprised you want to do it.

I don't see why EVE should prevent us from making lousy choices if we want to.


That would kind of be poor UI. Also assuming there's at least some amount of additional back end coding for each type of module it's a bit of a waste of dev time.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#6 - 2017-03-04 09:00:57 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd like to be able to group everything.

I would too. I know it might get some blowback, but I don't see why things like: neutralizers, ewar, resist mods, etc. can't be grouped together.
There is no unfair advantage to providing an in game tool on the hud to allow you to assign multiple actions to a single hotkey.
F1- Fire main weapons.
F2- Resist mods active.
F3- Webifier and Scrambler
F4- Neutralyzers

Why shouldn't we be able to assign multiple module activations to the same groupkey?
Obsidian Blacke
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2017-03-04 09:20:54 UTC
Sitting Bull Lakota wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd like to be able to group everything.

I would too. I know it might get some blowback, but I don't see why things like: neutralizers, ewar, resist mods, etc. can't be grouped together.
There is no unfair advantage to providing an in game tool on the hud to allow you to assign multiple actions to a single hotkey.
F1- Fire main weapons.
F2- Resist mods active.
F3- Webifier and Scrambler
F4- Neutralyzers

Why shouldn't we be able to assign multiple module activations to the same groupkey?


Because CCP wants you to make good choices: Like activating your point before your web.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2017-03-04 13:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Obsidian Blacke wrote:
Because CCP wants you to make good choices: Like activating your point before your web.

So is the problem that EWAR grouping would reduce the number of pilots who activate the point first, or that it would increase the number of pilots who don't activate the point later?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
mkint
#9 - 2017-03-04 14:07:51 UTC
I assume it was for technical reasons at the time. It was for technical reasons that they added weapon grouping at all. I suspect to add other types of grouping would require a completely different approach. And as a pilot, doing that kind of grouping would probably be a bad idea anyway.

@reaver: it sounds to me like you don't do tackle. You ALWAYS point before you web, or you lose your target.

Nevertheless, doing other kinds of grouping would technically be a completely new game mechanic, and unlike weapon grouping it would strictly be a QOL feature rather than a performance feature. IMO, it would be a bad idea as it would encourage dumb behavior and we need players in EVE to be smarter, not dumber.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2017-03-04 15:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
mkint wrote:
@reaver: it sounds to me like you don't do tackle.

I'm not asking for advice, I'm asking in order to ascertain the motives of my detractor. More players matter than just me, and this game is played by (and should be accessible to) people other than only veteran pilots.


mkint wrote:
You ALWAYS point before you web, or you lose your target.

Furthermore, that's not necessarily true. It applies in particular to situations in which you point someone while they are partly aligned to warp. For some pilots, that may apply to almost all cases (especially if you run gate camps in a Daredevil), while other pilots could web first every time and never lose a target due to it. I myself have activated my web first at times and haven't yet slingshotted anyone out from under me. That's probably due to the fact most of my targets haven't started aligning by the time I snag them, or they aren't trying to warp in the first place. Warp disruption before web is a great rule of thumb but is by no means mandatory.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
mkint
#11 - 2017-03-04 15:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
mkint wrote:
@reaver: it sounds to me like you don't do tackle.

I'm not asking for advice, I'm asking in order to ascertain the motives of my detractor. More players matter than just me, and this game is played by (and should be accessible to) people other than only veteran pilots.


mkint wrote:
You ALWAYS point before you web, or you lose your target.

Furthermore, that's not necessarily true. It applies in particular to situations in which you point someone while they are partly aligned to warp. For some pilots, that may apply to almost all cases (especially if you run gate camps in a Daredevil), while other pilots could web first every time and never lose a target due to it. I myself have activated my web first at times and haven't yet slingshotted anyone out from under me. That's probably due to the fact most of my targets haven't started aligning by the time I snag them, or they aren't trying to warp in the first place. Warp disruption before web is a great rule of thumb but is by no means mandatory.

My point still stands though. When grouping other modules, whether mining lasers, mixed weapons, ewar, pretty much anything except maybe resists where it wouldn't actually do much good anyway, the game would be encouraging less effective behavior. In some cases outright dumb behavior. Technically, I suppose having the feature apply broadly makes technical sense, but from a sense of social engineering we should be encouraging smarter behavior. Grouping for other modules shouldn't be available because (broadly speaking) nobody should be doing it, available or not. And if we want to start adding features to make it easier to make dumb mistakes, I'm sure we could compile a list of a million ideas.

edit:
I suppose the structure of my previous post made it sound like I was singling you out for making dumb mistakes, which I wasn't. I actually had in mind the most likely rookie scenario of focusing all mining lasers on 1 rock even though that's less effective than splitting fire, but the same thing applies to other modules as well.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-03-04 16:59:13 UTC
mkint wrote:
My point still stands though. When grouping other modules, whether mining lasers, mixed weapons, ewar, pretty much anything except maybe resists where it wouldn't actually do much good anyway, the game would be encouraging less effective behavior. In some cases outright dumb behavior.

It's often not that big a deal and when it is, not having them grouped isn't going to teach good behavior. That's what veteran pilots are for: to teach new pilots how to fly. It is then up to the pilot to decide how they wish to group their modules.

I'd group my mining lasers. Sometimes I'm mining a big asteroid that's going to take a while. CCP buffed the capacitor on barges so I no longer need ganglinks to start all strips at the same time. Or if I'm mining a big asteroid in a destroyer or battleship, it'd be great to be able to link all those lasers together.

I have another point to make about web-slinging: I think it's a lousy "feature" that remains only because CCP can't think of a good way to remove it, and as such we shouldn't be encouraging people to use it. Perhaps a linked web and warp disruptor would automatically apply the disruption effect before the web effect, thereby ensuring the ship is not slingshotted into warp. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's removing gameplay. It's more like removing a hassle that never needed to be there in the first place. If that means five years from now there will be expert PVPers who are completely unaware you can lose your target by webbing first, then it apparently isn't a problem since it clearly never affected their killboard.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."