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CSM. The manner mismatch the matter.

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Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
#1 - 2017-02-28 23:07:31 UTC
There is an idea - to consider player opinion by the developer. I think this is to some degree a good way to succeed. At least as part of the quality system.

The community should see CSM as an instrument make the communication with CCP easy and welcoming.

But the truth is that CSM acts as a huge and unbreachable wall between the community and CCP because:
- the field of activity of CSM can be way much different from real aspirations of the community;
- intercommunication between the community and CSM is a false...
And there are more.

One of the reasons of CSM is not what it should be is the mechanism of it's forming. The elections we all are witnessing every season actually is not a way to create effective and relevant apparatus. Why are the candidates? Why are the voters? And how all these voters choose the right candidates? Answering this questions helps to understand the things underlay CSM.

Me actually don't find any meaningful result of CSM work which is absolutely not transparent and not useful in the bargain.

I also don't wanna believe that CSM was created as a tool for CCP in order to redirect player' submissions (in fact as a form of rejection and ignoring) but the reality is that it happen to be.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2017-02-28 23:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Alexander Bor wrote:
There is an idea - to consider player opinion by the developer. I think this is to some degree a good way to succeed. At least as part of the quality system.

The community should see CSM as an instrument make the communication with CCP easy and welcoming.

But the truth is that CSM acts as a huge and unbreachable wall between the community and CCP because:
- the field of activity of CSM can be way much different from real aspirations of the community;
- intercommunication between the community and CSM is a false...
And there are more.

One of the reasons of CSM is not what it should be is the mechanism of it's forming. The elections we all are witnessing every season actually is not a way to create effective and relevant apparatus. Why are the candidates? Why are the voters? And how all these voters choose the right candidates? Answering this questions helps to understand the things underlay CSM.

Me actually don't find any meaningful result of CSM work which is absolutely not transparent and not useful in the bargain.

I also don't wanna believe that CSM was created as a tool for CCP in order to redirect player' submissions (in fact as a form of rejection and ignoring) but the reality is that it happen to be.



are you telling me that democrazy is all a huge lie? *whistle*

can't you see how well all democrazies around the world are working perfectly fine? without corruption? without second interests only for the good of the country?

yea... CSM is nothing less! just another democrazy Roll

p.s. i'm an innocent virgin 12 years old boy
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#3 - 2017-02-28 23:45:02 UTC
So some thoughts from a former CSM member. I ran and was elected for one reason. To help the players have oversight to prevent scandals like the BPO scandal in the BOB days or the POS exploit. And I think the CSM did that role very well. However I think it changed and became some sort of way for some folks to think they were suddenly "game developers". What it seemed to change into from an oversight and advocacy role to the "good idea faeries" that I thought they became when I lost interest. I don't know what role the CSM fills anymore. Popularity contest? Free Iceland trip lottery? No idea. I guess now I'd say its a candidate for the "How is that still a thing?" segment of the John Oliver show.

But I may be totally wrong about the value of the CSM today. But I'd say that fact I can't figure out what they add to Eve anymore says something isn't "working as intended". I'd suggest CCP consider replacing it with some sort of open session with the players at Fanfests. But that's just me.

I am happy I ran and won but there are better ways to get a trip to Iceland but the Nonni's Lamb Sub almost made it worthwhile! If I had it to do all over I'd have paid my own way to a Fanfest and not got sidetracked with the whole hassle of CSM and instead put my efforts into the Space Llamas of BEEP and Tada O!
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2017-03-01 00:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthias Ancaladron
A big part of csm is just big alliance private interest and they have an nda so even if there were something to communicate with the community they can't talk anyway. Ndas are terrible.

If ccp wants to improve it drop the nda.
Not sure how to fix the other bit.
They tried to make a csm for dust 514 and it was a huge disaster cause it mostly a bunch of stupid people bored in by all the nobodies who played once and never touched the game again and we were stuck with awful people like iron wolf saber. At least it's not like that here.
Cade Windstalker
#5 - 2017-03-01 16:24:11 UTC
OP, your complaint here seems to be more along the lines of "CCP/the CSM isn't doing what *I* want" rather than the CSM is actually ineffective or bad as an organization.

If you actually feel that your views represent a majority then I suggest trying to organize, rally like-minded players behind a candidate, or run yourself.

Also, specifically regarding transparency, have you ever messaged any of the CSMs? Read the meeting minutes from the summits? Looked around at the CSM posts on these forums? There's plenty of transparency, it's just not being handed to you on a silver platter...

Issler Dainze wrote:
But I may be totally wrong about the value of the CSM today. But I'd say that fact I can't figure out what they add to Eve anymore says something isn't "working as intended". I'd suggest CCP consider replacing it with some sort of open session with the players at Fanfests. But that's just me.


So, immediate problem with this, the vast majority of players can't afford to fly to Fanfest. The vast majority also can't afford to be CSMs, but everyone can afford to give feedback to the CSMs to take to Iceland with them.

If the CSM were replaced with a Fanfest panel it would just turn into pay to play in the worst way. At least with the current setup we have enough transparency to see which CSMs are actually doing work, bringing up issues, and actually trying to represent the community.
Joey Bags
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2017-03-01 16:49:13 UTC
I do still see value of the CSM for all players. Of the several points I've brought to CSM one was brought up (not at my sole suggestion). I have seen things nerfed or buffed after CSM has brought it up over the years. The problem I think the OP posses is that the of the things brought to CCP by the SCM are not immediately implemented. They need to be studied so as not to affect another area of the game not to mention coded, tested and rolled out. Wardec mechanics comes to mind. It took about two years after the CSM had workgroups with developers for some of the changes to make it into the game. Some things were fixed and others got broken even after a few years worth of consideration. So, no, they cannot just increase the drop rates of certain things within a month just because people whine about it. Beyond the game itself there are a myriad of things that the CSM addresses as well (3rd party developments, API/portal concerns, etc.). I trust that if the CSM does bring up a topic/concern to CCP that they at the very least consider what is being brought to them. I don't believe it's just a free trip to Iceland.

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose. Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#7 - 2017-03-01 16:52:52 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
OP, your complaint here seems to be more along the lines of "CCP/the CSM isn't doing what *I* want" rather than the CSM is actually ineffective or bad as an organization.

If you actually feel that your views represent a majority then I suggest trying to organize, rally like-minded players behind a candidate, or run yourself.

Also, specifically regarding transparency, have you ever messaged any of the CSMs? Read the meeting minutes from the summits? Looked around at the CSM posts on these forums? There's plenty of transparency, it's just not being handed to you on a silver platter...

Issler Dainze wrote:
But I may be totally wrong about the value of the CSM today. But I'd say that fact I can't figure out what they add to Eve anymore says something isn't "working as intended". I'd suggest CCP consider replacing it with some sort of open session with the players at Fanfests. But that's just me.


So, immediate problem with this, the vast majority of players can't afford to fly to Fanfest. The vast majority also can't afford to be CSMs, but everyone can afford to give feedback to the CSMs to take to Iceland with them.

If the CSM were replaced with a Fanfest panel it would just turn into pay to play in the worst way. At least with the current setup we have enough transparency to see which CSMs are actually doing work, bringing up issues, and actually trying to represent the community.


I did consider that the main Iceland fanfest is costly but there is Vegas and stuff like Penny Arcade. Even regular public Skype sessions could work. But to be fair my response was just an "off the top of my head" suggestion.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#8 - 2017-03-01 17:10:43 UTC
CSM are basically lobbyists like in all democrazies ( love this word!!Lol ) and pander influence, which is a very Eve thing btw, to CCP for big block interests and as the years have advanced we, as players, have figured out how to pander and lobby extremely well by adapting and influencing through riots and threats like real life.

This process will never change imo. Like real life politics itll always be a part of humanity as groups and individuals vie for power, influence and control for themselves and to inhibit and control others power, influence and control.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#9 - 2017-03-02 00:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Alexander Bor wrote:


Me actually don't find any meaningful result of CSM work which is absolutely not transparent and not useful in the bargain.


That's because the CSM is a marketing tool for CCP. It exists to provide results for CCP not for you. Think of them as a sort of "focus group" with the added PR benefit that they can be paraded in front of the players as if it had any meaning. CCP listens to the CSM, of course. However they're not obliged (or even inclined) to act on anything the CSM provides. Usually they're just a test group for CCP to bounce ideas off of and see what kind of player reaction they can expect.

All it costs them is a few plane tickets a year. Cheap at the price, you should see what market research companies charge.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#10 - 2017-03-02 00:32:56 UTC
One thing I'll say:

The summits aren't holidays. Yes, you get flown to Iceland. You then spend (now) 4 days in a meeting room before flying home. And the fanfest trip for (some) members was removed for 10. (With 9's agreement. Meant more people at the summits)

Maybe the work has changed since the beginning. You'd have to ask Issler. There's certainly an implication there.


Anyway:
The CSM is, primarily, a focus group for CCP. People to hear plans in confidence and give feedback. And to highlight problems which CCP may have overlooked, suggesting that it needs work.

We're not game designers. Anyone that thinks that is missing the whole point. And is soon corrected if they make it on. (That's not to say we can't suggest things. But I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times a suggestion has been acted on, when it's not directly related to something CCP is already working on)

It's _possible_ for anyone to get onto it. You just need to persuade enough people that they should vote for you. It doesn't need a major nullsec bloc behind you. (That helps, of course. Because they come with enough people. They'd not be major blocs otherwise)

The worst thing you can do, if you object to the number of nullsec people on it, is not vote. Independents can get on. Just look at Mike. Or me.


As for 'replace them with public forums!', a key part of the CSM is that CCP can come to us with plans which are less formed. Where things might change substantially before release. Or be completely canned. You know what people can be like. "We're thinking about" becomes "We're definitely doing." Which is something CCP's had problems with in the past. Also not good for quick feedback.

CCP _do_ have chats with players at their events. Just look at the roundtables at Fanfest. They're just not suitable for everything.


(ok. more than one thing.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-03-02 00:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Steve Ronuken wrote:
One thing I'll say:

The summits aren't holidays...



stopped reading LMAOOOOOO
i mean if you STFU it's better just saying :D

CCP would get more faster answers on the forum, after they open a public thread with the esplicit sentence
"work in progress, may never be available on TQ, what do you think?"

they would get many trolls like me, but definetely someone that knows things would say something interesting.
Up to the dev then sorting out suggestions!

faster, cheaper, public, izi win! (Edit: basically like PL dropping on Goon's Vendetta)
instead let's go with CSM parade Cool carneval is exatly during these days Cool
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#12 - 2017-03-02 19:10:39 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
One thing I'll say:

The summits aren't holidays. Yes, you get flown to Iceland. You then spend (now) 4 days in a meeting room before flying home. And the fanfest trip for (some) members was removed for 10. (With 9's agreement. Meant more people at the summits)

Maybe the work has changed since the beginning. You'd have to ask Issler. There's certainly an implication there.


Anyway:
The CSM is, primarily, a focus group for CCP. People to hear plans in confidence and give feedback. And to highlight problems which CCP may have overlooked, suggesting that it needs work.

We're not game designers. Anyone that thinks that is missing the whole point. And is soon corrected if they make it on. (That's not to say we can't suggest things. But I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times a suggestion has been acted on, when it's not directly related to something CCP is already working on)

It's _possible_ for anyone to get onto it. You just need to persuade enough people that they should vote for you. It doesn't need a major nullsec bloc behind you. (That helps, of course. Because they come with enough people. They'd not be major blocs otherwise)

The worst thing you can do, if you object to the number of nullsec people on it, is not vote. Independents can get on. Just look at Mike. Or me.


As for 'replace them with public forums!', a key part of the CSM is that CCP can come to us with plans which are less formed. Where things might change substantially before release. Or be completely canned. You know what people can be like. "We're thinking about" becomes "We're definitely doing." Which is something CCP's had problems with in the past. Also not good for quick feedback.

CCP _do_ have chats with players at their events. Just look at the roundtables at Fanfest. They're just not suitable for everything.


(ok. more than one thing.)


So I can confirm it is not a Holiday, when you are there you work. If someone wants to go to Iceland for fun I'd suggest save your money and enjoy the trip on your own. It would be cool if an Eve player could drop by CCP and get a tour as I did find CCP interesting but I don't think they let you.

As for my comment about some CSM thinking they were "game developers" I found several of the CSM I encountered at the end of my last term very much trying to be that. I can't speak for who is there now. My first stint in the second CSM we did have one high profile member known for aggressive use of table implements that clearly was trying to turn their CSM experience into a career and I believe they may have managed to land some sort of job in a game company. And several CSM did end up going to work for CCP.

The CSM really was a result of some bad behavior on CCP's part in the form of the BPO scandal and the a POS exploit that had CCP scrambling to regain some credibility with the player base. I think there is some element of that still. But I would point out several key CCP folks that set the tone for the CSM early on are no longer with CCP. 'New" CCP folks filled the void and that I felt that the reason for the CSM was changing from oversight to something else.

I can say the last I was directly involved there were some "strong" personalities in the CSM that I felt dominated the process and they were 100% focused on their vision of what they thought Eve should be. Thus my comment about being the "idea faeries". Although I'd like to believe I could be a pretty good game designer I don't claim to be one and I was not interested in trying to force my way into becoming one via the CSM. So I basically felt I'd rather go back to just being yet another space citizen and leave the CSM-ing to others.

I also got a little tired of some CSM providing "technical" input into some aspects of the game that they clearly were not qualified to comment on. There were a few with very wrong ideas about the merits of certain PC graphics technologies as well as some general misunderstanding of APIs. But that was just me. Then again I have a 30+ year history in software engineering and multiple patents related to the PC graphics pipeline so who am I to say! P

As for getting elected, being part of a big alliance makes it easier but you can even if you aren't. I managed to get elected three times (I think) and although I love BEEP but I would be lying if I said we were a "power block". Lol

Eve really does offer a very large range of experiences and running and being part of the CSM should be included among them. So it you think you'd like to take your Eve experience to another place I'd say run and maybe you will get the opportunity to have a Nonni's sub or the somewhat unusual Icelandic soft drinks from a CCP cooler. If that sounds worth the effort and the downside that comes from all the "attention" you can expect I'd say go for it. No telling how long the CSM will continue to be a thing or that it continue to come with the same level of perks and access.

BEEP wears its record level of bounty it received as a result of my CSM-ing with pride! Big smile
Darth Carbonite Tokila
Incorruptibles
#13 - 2017-03-03 03:10:12 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
They tried to make a csm for dust 514 and it was a huge disaster cause it mostly a bunch of stupid people bored in by all the nobodies who played once and never touched the game again and we were stuck with awful people like iron wolf saber. At least it's not like that here.


I have no idea if you stayed around past CPM0, but the CPM as a whole prided itself on being the less dramatic, more focused cousin of the CSM, not unlike how Dust was to EVE.

I'd like to think we got a lot done, and provided quality feedback. Then again, Dust died, so...

Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
we were stuck with awful people like iron wolf saber.


That did make me chuckle, for inside-joke reasons. He'll get a kick out of this for sure.

Member of CPM2 Dustside
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#14 - 2017-03-03 06:46:15 UTC
Can confirm. IWS would definitely get a kick from this.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2017-03-03 11:56:42 UTC
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
Can confirm. IWS would definitely get a kick from this.



Maybe by now he's figured out assault suit doesn't mean "Jack of all trades with two grenade slots"
But i doubt it.
Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2017-03-03 15:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Issler Dainze wrote:
I did consider that the main Iceland fanfest is costly but there is Vegas and stuff like Penny Arcade. Even regular public Skype sessions could work. But to be fair my response was just an "off the top of my head" suggestion.


Eve Vegas costs about as much as Fanfest unless you live within driving distance of Vegas, and even then it's a close run thing.

PAX isn't an Eve event, is also costly if you don't live near it, and isn't an Eve or CCP focused event so they've basically got a few reps there to run a booth and anyone else there is there to see what others are doing, not to hold court with players.

A skype session with dozens of people trying to talk is intolerable, a skype session with hundreds is flat out worthless. Avoiding this kind of mess is part of the point of representative government.

I get the general frustration some people have with the CSM, but at least most people who make the CSM actually care and sorta know what they're doing or talking about, and with a small group CCP can explain NDA'd things to them and give them insight to help them give better feedback. The average player can't even give good feedback with the information they have available, just look at PFaID or every feedback thread ever in Upcoming Changes. Lots of yelling, not a lot of evidence or substance.

I'm not saying that the CSM format is the best it could possibly be, but I don't think direct player feedback is a better solution. We already have that, it's called the forums, and it's an unholy mess.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#17 - 2017-03-03 16:51:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

but at least most people who make the CSM actually care and sorta know what they're doing or talking about


OK, that made me chuckle! Yes there are some that care about Eve but for many it really was for the trip and perks. As to knowing what they are talking about? It would not be an assumption my experiences would confirm. I was surprised to learn a few CSMs I met were damn smart an knew what they were talking about but there were enough that didn't that I would call their advice to be a hazard to themselves and others.

Let be fair, the CSM is just another political body and folks that get elected are made up of all manner of of awesome or not. I would say this about that. Eve is a truly unique game. One thing that makes Eve "Eve" is the CSM. It lets Eve have more layers of "meta" and Eve is unrivaled in its ability to offer the "meta". I can't think of another game that would make me want to run for an office or that would get my virtual self in the global news multiple times as a result of things that happened in a virtual universe.

Eve is the big leagues for a type of gamer that no other game offers. And the CSM is part of that.
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#18 - 2017-03-03 21:36:27 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
p.s. i'm an innocent virgin 12 years old boy



LMFAO! This is EVE, so i could believe that! Lol

But enough laughter, CSM is pointless, just get rid of it.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2017-03-03 21:54:27 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


I'm not saying that the CSM format is the best it could possibly be, but I don't think direct player feedback is a better solution. We already have that, it's called the forums, and it's an unholy mess.


The problem is in the perception. Biased or not, the representative who come from the same alliance or powerbloc will be seen as biased toward their own side. The past leaking allegation don't help with that and I personally think the penalty for doing so are not harsh enough. I mean, if you are backed by a powerbloc, leaking info is not that bad since you can just get your corp/alliance member elected next year and have him do the same thing. All you lost was your own seat for that year.

For anyone who sin't inside of a vote bloc, it probably look bad when you think of it this way, no matter if it actually happen or not.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-03-04 02:19:19 UTC
Personally I've felt that the CSM system just isn't representative enough. Yes it democratic, but at some point it is a popularity contest backed by the mega coalitions. if you don't have a mega coalition forcing its people to vote for you then you wont win.
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