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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1061 - 2017-03-02 10:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Scipio Artelius wrote:


You can't patch stupid. The ISK value lost is 100% player controllable. It's not a game issue and just pointing at zkill isn't itself evidence. It's just a way of telling others to go look at things you think are already true. That isn't an argument.

CCP Fozzie said it best here:

"...we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance..."

To keep things in balance....paired nerfs and buffs to keep things in balance.

But all this thread is, is a call to nerf. No consideration that 'everyone' is equal, despite the statements above.


AGAIN... The OP has nothing to do with the targets. It has to do with what mechanics criminals are able to avoid indefinitely in highsec space. Go back and read previous posts because you are arguing points that others have already posted a few times now.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1062 - 2017-03-02 10:12:18 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:


You can't patch stupid. The ISK value lost is 100% player controllable. It's not a game issue and just pointing at zkill isn't itself evidence. It's just a way of telling others to go look at things you think are already true. That isn't an argument.

CCP Fozzie said it best here:

"...we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance..."

To keep things in balance....paired nerfs and buffs to keep things in balance.

But all this thread is, is a call to nerf. No consideration that 'everyone' is equal, despite the statements above.


AGAIN... The OP has nothing to do with the targets. It has to do with what mechanics criminals are able to avoid indefinitely in highsec space. Go back and read previous posts because you are arguing points that others have already posted a few times now.

Then why are you claiming ISK value as the issue?

Right here, in the post that I responded to:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6856470#post6856470
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1063 - 2017-03-02 10:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Sorry that's not how proof works. I only need to provide why it isn't factual and the rest is mute.

Ok, then show that it isn't factual.

Not opinion. Opinions mean nothing. My opinion means nothing. No one else's opinion means anything more.

If you want to provide why it isn't factual, then provide that.


Simple, it's not VERIFIABLE information that comes from an official source (CCP). Now if redfrog operated under one corp, you would be able to easily use zkill to determine which freighter loses belong to them... but they don't so ...sorry!!!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1064 - 2017-03-02 10:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
If you don't find the answer u like - I dont care about it;
You got your answer it just doesn't suit you well.

Not at all. I assume English is not your first language, so I'm sure you think you answered the question asked, but it wasn't what was asked.

Just to repeat it (from a quote of NightmareX):

If it "shouldn't prevent the game from working better for everyone", surely everyone also includes gankers?

Your answer didn't address that at all. It's pretty simple and straight forward, but a reply of:

Simple - if one part of game is broken, then it should be ballanced;

Has nothing to do with whether gankers are part of the 'everyone' that the game should work for.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1065 - 2017-03-02 10:19:50 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:


You can't patch stupid. The ISK value lost is 100% player controllable. It's not a game issue and just pointing at zkill isn't itself evidence. It's just a way of telling others to go look at things you think are already true. That isn't an argument.

CCP Fozzie said it best here:

"...we like to pair buff and nerfs to suicide ganking to keep things in balance..."

To keep things in balance....paired nerfs and buffs to keep things in balance.

But all this thread is, is a call to nerf. No consideration that 'everyone' is equal, despite the statements above.


AGAIN... The OP has nothing to do with the targets. It has to do with what mechanics criminals are able to avoid indefinitely in highsec space. Go back and read previous posts because you are arguing points that others have already posted a few times now.

Then why are you claiming ISK value as the issue?

Right here, in the post that I responded to:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6856470#post6856470

It's not the issue, but it does support and back up the claimed issue.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1066 - 2017-03-02 10:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Erich Einstein wrote:
Simple, it's not VERIFYABLE ilinformation that comes from an official source (CCP). Now if redfrogs operated under one corp, you would be able to easily use zkill to determine which freighter loses belong to them... but they don't so ...sorry!!!

Ok, I'll stop that line there. It's obvious that there is no way to provide proof that it isn't factual.

Saying it isn't verifiable isn't proof that it's wrong. It's a suspicion, which is also fine, but it's doesn't provide that the information from red frog isn't fact. It could well be fact, but since you can't verify it, you would prefer to dismiss it. That's fine and everyone has a right to their own beliefs.

So there is no point continuing down that line.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1067 - 2017-03-02 10:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Simple, it's not VERIFYABLE ilinformation that comes from an official source (CCP). Now if redfrogs operated under one corp, you would be able to easily use zkill to determine which freighter loses belong to them... but they don't so ...sorry!!!

Ok, I'll stop that line there. It's obvious that there is no way to provide proof that it isn't factual.

Saying it isn't verifiable isn't proof that it's wrong. It's a suspicion, which is also fine, but it's doesn't provide that the information from red frog isn't fact. It could well be fact, but since you can't verify it, you would prefer to dismiss it. That's fine and everyone has a right to their own beliefs.

So there is no point continuing down that line.

Again, that's not how it works...lol
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1068 - 2017-03-02 10:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Erich Einstein wrote:
Gankers operate on the choke points from jita to amarr, not every gate in the whole region. Stop trying to inflate your numbers with unrelavant data. And this has no bearing on how much gankers are able to walk away with and destroy every 15min of the day in a never-ending loop without ever having to repair their security status. KARMAFleet has destroyed 5trillion in people's hard-earned isk that took some serious grinding while only losing 12 billion in cheap Gank ships was lost. The OP is attempting to limit this highly unbalanced isk grab that gankers are able to get away with in a never-ending loop. It's essentially cheap mode in terms of earning isk in-game.
There is no inflation. You can take any of the highsec regions and divide the destruction by the amount of goods transported and get a number that is a fraction of a percent.

Let me answer my question for you. The answer is zero. You will not think flying a freighter is "safe enough" until the number of suicide ganks in highsec is zero. You have a moral problem with players taking other player's "hard-earned isk" through criminal actions and it bothers you so much, you cannot accept it happening once to another player, no matter little effort that player made to defend themselves, or how much effort a large group of players spent to take their stuff.

That's fine. You can subscribe to whatever moral code you wish. However it points the fundamental problem that this is intended gameplay. It always has been, and always will be. You are intended to be able to get ahead in this game by "hard work" and grinding, or by taking resources from other players by force.

While I find your emotionally-driven and belligerent flailing about all over the forums, reddit and Facebook amusing, I see no happy outcome for you. Criminals are intended to ply the trade lanes of New Eden, taking the "hard-earned isk" of the weak, complacent, lazy and incompetent through piracy. It is an intended profession. Sure, specific aspects of game play have and will need to be balanced, but that is not ever going to include locking players out from the profession or making it impossible to repeatedly attack other players, no matter how loud and hard you whine or beg CCP.

I am so sorry for you. Did you ever consider you might just be playing the wrong game? I hear Elite Dangerous has a mode where you can turn off your PvP flag and get the 100% safety you seem to be craving?

In any case, this is going nowhere. I will again ignore this thread and watch it fade into the dustbin of history along with all the other ones begging CCP to make highsec safe.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1069 - 2017-03-02 10:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Erich Einstein wrote:
It's not the issue, but it does support and back up the claimed issue.

It doesn't though.

Players can already completely eliminate the issue of value. It's 100% within player control. That's not a game mechanics issue. It's purely a player issue.

If I put 30 PLEX in a shuttle and then get ganked on the Jita undock by a Tornado, the ganker loses 100 million ISK ship, but my killmail would still be 30 Billion.

That's so unbalanced. 100 million lost. 30 Billion killed.

Yet, the only thing required to prevent that is for me to not undock with 30 PLEX in my cargo in a shuttle. Then he loses 100 million for a 10K killmail.

The whole balance issue is flipped, simply by how I act.

There is nothing in the mechanics that can prevent my behaviour there. The only person who can change that ISK ratio is me.

Unfortunately, that is the type of thing that happens every day (not necessarily with PLEX, though that happens regularly). People are the issue when it comes to ISK ratios. They are completely irrelevant as a game balsance issue when talking about player actions.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1070 - 2017-03-02 10:33:58 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Gankers operate on the choke points from jita to amarr, not every gate in the whole region. Stop trying to inflate your numbers with unrelavant data. And this has no bearing on how much gankers are able to walk away with and destroy every 15min of the day in a never-ending loop without ever having to repair their security status. KARMAFleet has destroyed 5trillion in people's hard-earned isk that took some serious grinding while only losing 12 billion in cheap Gank ships was lost. The OP is attempting to limit this highly unbalanced isk grab that gankers are able to get away with in a never-ending loop. It's essentially cheap mode in terms of earning isk in-game.
There is no inflation. You can take any of the highsec regions and divide the destruction by the amount of goods transported and get a number that is a fraction of a percent.

Let me answer my question for you. The answer is zero. You will not think flying a freighter is "safe enough" until the number of suicide ganks in highsec is zero. You have a moral problem with players taking other players "hard-earned isk" through criminal actions and it bothers you so much, you cannot accept it happening once to another player, no matter little effort that player made to defend themselves, or how much effort a large group of players spent to take their stuff.

That's fine. You can subscribe to whatever moral code you wish. However it points the fundamental problem that this is intended gameplay. It always has been, and always will be. You are intended to be able to get ahead in this game by "hard work" and grinding, or by taking resources from other players by force.

While I find your emotionally-driven and belligerent flailing about all over the forums, reddit and Facebook amusing, I see no happy outcome for you. Criminals are intended to ply the trade lanes of New Eden, taking the "hard-earned isk" of the weak, complacent, lazy and incompetent through piracy. It is an intended profession. Sure, specific aspects of game play have and will need to be balanced, but that is not ever going to include locking players out from the profession or making it impossible to repeatedly attack other players, no matter how loud and hard you whine or beg CCP.

I am so sorry for you. Did you ever consider you might just be playing the wrong game? I hear Elite Dangerous has a mode where you can turn off your PvP flag and get the 100% safety you seem to be craving?

In any case, this is going nowhere. I will again ignore this thread and watch it fade into the dustbin of history along with all the other one begging CCP to make highsec safe.



O/ - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1071 - 2017-03-02 10:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Erich Einstein wrote:
Again, that's not how it works...lol

OK. Then if you want to continue down that line, then explain how proof works.

From what I have seen above, you don't seem to understand what a proof actually is. That's not criticism, just a limitation of this sort of discussion on an internet forum.

By example of the above:

If I state now that I am drinking a coffee, you can chose to believe that or not.

You can't verify it, so you have a choice in how you treat that information.

However, even if you choose not to believe it, because you can't verify it, it can still be true.

You haven't proved my statement as false, just because you can't verify it.

It's the same thing with the Red Frog data. You want to dismiss it because you can't verfiy it. I have no problem with that. It's perfectly fine, however it doesn't prove that it is wrong. It can still be very much fact, even if you choose to dismiss it because you can't verify it yourself.

As an Engineer, you should be able to see the logic of that statement.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1072 - 2017-03-02 10:36:10 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
It's not the issue, but it does support and back up the claimed issue.

It doesn't though.

Players can already completely eliminate the issue of value. It's 100% within player control. That's not a game mechanics issue. It's purely a player issue.

If I put 30 PLEX in a shuttle and then get ganked on the Jita undock by a Tornado, the ganker loses 100 million ISK ship, but my killmail would still be 30 Billion.

That's so unbalanced. 100 million lost. 30 Billion killed.

Yet, the only thing required to prevent that is for me to not undock with 30 PLEX in my cargo in a shuttle. Then he loses 100 million for a 10K killmail.

The whole balance issue is flipped, simply by how I act.

There is nothing in the mechanics that can prevent my behaviour there. The only person who can change that ISK ratio is me.

Unfortunately, that is the type of thing that happens every day (not necessarily with PLEX, though that happens regularly). People are the issue when it comes to ISK ratios. They are completely irrelevant as a game balsance issue when talking about player actions.


Please don't jump back on the ... It's the freighter guy's fault train. We have beat that claim to death in this thread.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#1073 - 2017-03-02 10:37:52 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Again, that's not how it works...lol

OK. Then if you want to continue down that line, then explain how proof works.

From what I have seen above, you don't seem to understand what a proof actually is. That's not criticism, just a limitation of this sort of discussion on an internet forum.


I would beg to differ, my computer science and engineering degree suggests I do thoroughly understand how proof works.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1074 - 2017-03-02 10:41:01 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Again, that's not how it works...lol

OK. Then if you want to continue down that line, then explain how proof works.

From what I have seen above, you don't seem to understand what a proof actually is. That's not criticism, just a limitation of this sort of discussion on an internet forum.


I would beg to differ, my computer science and engineering degree suggests I do thoroughly understand how proof works.

So explain it.

There's no need for a pissing contest over who's epeen is bigger. Claiming you know what a proof is because of degrees doesn't prove anything.

If you can explain how a proof works though, then we'll have a basis to compare that against the above choice when it comes to the Red Frog data (and see the edit to my post above).
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#1075 - 2017-03-02 10:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Erich Einstein wrote:
Please don't jump back on the ... It's the freighter guy's fault train. We have beat that claim to death in this thread.

It's impossible to discuss things sometimes. Where have I claimed it is the Freighter guys fault? Quote the exact part where I say that.

It's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that the issue of ISK value is not a balance issue because it's totally controllable by players, irrespective of what CCP do. CCP can't balance the game around my choices.

That doesn't mean anything is anyone's fault. It's just not a mechanics issue.

This is unfortunately going nowhere fast, because it doesn't matter what is actually written, interpretations will see whatever someone else wants to see, even things not said.

So good luck.

-1 for me on this change.

There just hasn't been a good argument put in this thread to show that this change is needed.
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1076 - 2017-03-02 10:53:52 UTC
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


  • Security standing hit for every target they kill

  • No insurance payout for their ship loss

  • 15 minute timer where if they undock or enter a new ship in space CONCORD will attack and destroy their ship

  • Cost to improve your security status from -10 using tags currently stands at 308,373,365.59 isk



    • U made my day - especially the last what i bolded;
    So much "punishment" for ganking few freighters per day in 1-2 system (of milions gates hahaha) over and over - and u have to pay what... a penny?...

    How much u got ISK from ganking a freighters befor you hit a standing which doesn't let u park in a safespot with your ganking fleet? 10 Bilions?

    What is 300 mil in compare of your 10B;

    I can't get of feeling that Baltec1 is a massive troll out here;

    If you're killing freighters, it's not unusual to be doing it alongside twenty other people, all taking sec huts that need repair. So now, the bill is 6bil.

    Think before you post, you'll save yourself a lot of embarrassment.

    "Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
    Naye Nathaniel
    COBRA INC
    Seventh Sanctum.
    #1077 - 2017-03-02 10:57:20 UTC
    Scipio Artelius wrote:
    Naye Nathaniel wrote:
    If you don't find the answer u like - I dont care about it;
    You got your answer it just doesn't suit you well.

    Not at all. I assume English is not your first language, so I'm sure you think you answered the question asked, but it wasn't what was asked.

    Just to repeat it (from a quote of NightmareX):

    If it "shouldn't prevent the game from working better for everyone", surely everyone also includes gankers?

    Your answer didn't address that at all. It's pretty simple and straight forward, but a reply of:

    Simple - if one part of game is broken, then it should be ballanced;

    Has nothing to do with whether gankers are part of the 'everyone' that the game should work for.


    Thank you for being kind about language;
    About your question (where I already gave u an answer) - let me point something;

    There are barelly non fixes which touch EVERYONE;
    In example I advice you to check the March incoming changes;
    Do they ballance everyone or only some group?

    Of course they will have an impact for EVERYONE same as proposed changes in this thread.
    Naye Nathaniel
    COBRA INC
    Seventh Sanctum.
    #1078 - 2017-03-02 11:00:04 UTC
    Scipio Artelius wrote:


    If I put 30 PLEX in a shuttle and then get ganked on the Jita undock by a Tornado, the ganker loses 100 million ISK ship, but my killmail would still be 30 Billion.



    That would only mean you are a RTM trader ;) as no one is stupid enough to do it "as normal gameplaying"
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #1079 - 2017-03-02 11:07:00 UTC
    Naye Nathaniel wrote:

    Oh yeah it's safe right..

    BTW ganking is so much efficient that ppl even work at 11 accounts to gank ships:
    Bowhead down
    Obelisk down
    Charon down

    All of that in one single day;

    3.2B items dropped;


    If its easy to multibox 11 accounts then how is it hard to have a webbing alt with the freighter?

    Naye Nathaniel wrote:

    15 ships destroyed in uedama from a single "player"

    If you think it's normal ... go for a treatment.


    15 out of how many thousands that travel through that gate?

    Naye Nathaniel wrote:

    AND btw - how do you think, how much that freigher pilot earn by a single trip - 100 mil?
    That means how many trips he have to do to repay for his ship, 10-20?
    How long it'll take - month?


    How much do you think my freighters has earned me over the last 7 years doing 4 trips to jita a week?
    Ima Wreckyou
    The Conference Elite
    Safety.
    #1080 - 2017-03-02 11:59:21 UTC
    54 pages and all just because he is too butthurt to purchase a mining permit for only 10mil ISK....

    Evil RatKid