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[March] Mobile Warp Disruptor changes

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Author
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2017-02-22 13:33:43 UTC
Cable Uta wrote:
So you're telling me there needs to be a retardproof area where anyone with a reaction time >5m can live?

You mean like wormholes with every connection being critical?
Bubbles give extra 4 seconds.

Cable Uta wrote:
If this is your thought you should stay in highsec and leave nullsec to the big bots. kkthxbai <3

ftfy.

And yes, I'd rather be in hisec and play eve without dealing with losers who live in their mother's basements roaming only to get free kills on pve ships and running from everything resembling pvp. But hisec is dead, that's why I am in null.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#142 - 2017-02-22 13:39:34 UTC
Some people dont hide behind bubbles, they use them to stop people running away all the time.
Lanny Gillert
Black Hand Industries
#143 - 2017-02-22 13:39:49 UTC
Cable Uta wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Bubbles are still effectively permanent (scoop, redeploy) so long as a player is willing to put in the effort to make them so.

This is looking to be the biggest chore of all eve should you decide to do it. 2/3 of hisec quit for less.

Bronson Hughes wrote:
Generating killmails puts them on par with other deployables, which is good from the standpoint of consistency. However, I'm still not convinced that deployables should generate killmails at all, so I would rather the change gone the other way. Having deployables not generate killmails would lead to them being used (and destroyed) more often, both by the killboard-sensitive and those not wanting to give free intel.

Overall, kinda meh.


this.


So you're telling me there needs to be a retardproof area where anyone with a reaction time >5m can live?
If this is your thought you should stay in highsec and leave nullsec to the big bois. kkthxbai <3


Or, you know, become the proper little renter b***h you truly are and pay ISK to slave masters to rent in ****** systems where if you get tackled super blob can save you. BALANCE I THINK NOT CCP I PAY $$$ to mine in peace why do you do this.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2017-02-22 13:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
CCPL Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks thanks for the feedback so far!

On the subject of the bubble durations we understand that there are a lot of strong feelings about proper durations (both people who think they should be shorter and those who think they should be longer). Balancing between the needs of different types of players is always a tightrope and all I can say is that we'll continue to work hard trying to thread that needle.


Dear CCPL Fozzie, this isn't good enough.

CCPL Fozzie wrote:
Querns wrote:
B) Does the killmail generate for the person who drops it (at the personal level) and for the corporation (at the corporate level?)
It's generated for whoever owns the bubble in space. So if it was "launched for self" the mail will generate for the person who dropped it, if it was "launched for corp" then it'll generate for the corporation.


Basically this means that not only I get tremendously time-consuming and alarm-clock-requiring chore )or a giant stick if I don't want to do it), but I also have to do it in a neutral alt to avoid free intel?! I don't know how to respond to being screwed over that badly. You seriously want us to unsub and spit in your general direction that badly?

CCPL Fozzie wrote:
lanyaie wrote:
Will Mobile warp disruptors have their material requirements changed due to this proposed change to balance for the increased consumption?
Not at this time. If we do something more drastic in the future like dramatically shorten lifespans or making the bubbles disposable then we'd re-evaluate material inputs at that time and consider changes.

Infinite until found by a basement dwelling loser with a gun -> 2 days (aka nothing because nobody could manage bubbles that often) and reduced tank.
You say this isn't drastic enough? Just remove them from the game completely already ffs, would be pretty much the same.

STOP.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2017-02-22 13:47:50 UTC
Lanny Gillert wrote:
Or, you know, become the proper little renter b***h you truly are and pay ISK to slave masters to rent in ****** systems where if you get tackled super blob can save you. BALANCE I THINK NOT CCP I PAY $$$ to mine in peace why do you do this.


I am not a renter, I am a proud owner of little piece of northern space I won from goons in my bomber. I do not pay anyone for it.

The problem is, entities without batphones want to rat and mine too, and that is getting incredibly difficult with those changes, to the point where a sign should be put up on eve NO RATTING AND MINING WITHOUT 5 FAX ALTS AND 50 TITANS BATPHONE ALLOWED.
DS9
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2017-02-22 13:50:26 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Cable Uta wrote:
So you're telling me there needs to be a retardproof area where anyone with a reaction time >5m can live?

You mean like wormholes with every connection being critical?
Bubbles give extra 4 seconds.

Cable Uta wrote:
If this is your thought you should stay in highsec and leave nullsec to the big bots. kkthxbai <3

ftfy.

And yes, I'd rather be in hisec and play eve without dealing with losers who live in their mother's basements roaming only to get free kills on pve ships and running from everything resembling pvp. But hisec is dead, that's why I am in null.


Me and lots of other people are ratting without a bubble swarm on a gate.
Yes, from time to time we lose our ships and from time to time we have to escape and from time to time we kill the attacker.
Please calm down and stop insulting others and adopt to the new changes.

I see this change being a problem only for bot users that place 500 bubbles on 10 nearby gates and run a ratting bot on 5 accounts. Those people have no right to play or complain.



CCP Fozzie wrote:
Scooping and re-deploying a bubble would reset the decay timer.


Could you please explain how this will work?

I think it would be cool if anyone could scoop the bubble if it's left there for let's say 12 hours and decide what to do with it.
Otherwise with those long, 2 week timers and making it that only the bubble owner has an ability to redeploy the bubble, things won't change and most gates will still have 100 bubbles causing lag and problems.
Oranen
Wing and a Prayer
#147 - 2017-02-22 13:53:33 UTC
Lower the materials/cost drastically and make the bubble only last as long as the person who deployed it is in the area/online/or downtime.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2017-02-22 13:58:06 UTC
DS9 wrote:
Me and lots of other people are ratting without a bubble swarm on a gate.
Yes, from time to time we lose our ships and from time to time we have to escape and from time to time we kill the attacker.
Please calm down and stop insulting others and adopt to the new changes.

1) Escaping, losing ships and killing the attacker is not ratting.
2) I am calm and only insult people who are asking for it.
3) Those are not the changes yet, it's a discussion if they should be put in place. I would agree to a REASONABLE change, but 2 days are an order of magnitude below minimally rational.

DS9 wrote:
I see this change being a problem only for bot users that place 500 bubbles on 10 nearby gates and run a ratting bot on 5 accounts. Those people have no right to play or complain.

100% agree bot users have no right to complain.
100% disagree it is a problem for them as all it takes is a new script that automatically approaches bubbles on overview and redeploys them. This is trivial task for a bot, and humans will have hell to pay for this change.
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#149 - 2017-02-22 14:18:44 UTC
Cable Uta wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


lanyaie wrote:
Will Mobile warp disruptors have their material requirements changed due to this proposed change to balance for the increased consumption?
Not at this time. If we do something more drastic in the future like dramatically shorten lifespans or making the bubbles disposable then we'd re-evaluate material inputs at that time and consider changes.


Don't see why cost mineral cost would be edited, I mean a T1 large bubble is what 30m? T2 like 50?

I you manage them and don't just throw them out as trash you won't be loosing any money.


I agree with this. Materials shouldn't really be changed. The only stat changing is time. Just be mindful of what you're doing and you won't lose out on that isk. Makes you appreciate what you have a little more lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#150 - 2017-02-22 14:23:30 UTC
You had me at generates a killmail
DS9
Perkone
Caldari State
#151 - 2017-02-22 14:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DS9
Orca Platypus wrote:
DS9 wrote:
Me and lots of other people are ratting without a bubble swarm on a gate.
Yes, from time to time we lose our ships and from time to time we have to escape and from time to time we kill the attacker.
Please calm down and stop insulting others and adopt to the new changes.

1) Escaping, losing ships and killing the attacker is not ratting.
2) I am calm and only insult people who are asking for it.
3) Those are not the changes yet, it's a discussion if they should be put in place. I would agree to a REASONABLE change, but 2 days are an order of magnitude below minimally rational.


Ad 1.
Yeah but the idea is that no high reward task should be risk free.
Ratting in null is very lucrative and therefore needs to be associated with some risk.
Therefore escaping, losing a ship or killing the attacker is a part of ratting (or actually any other eve activity) in nullsec, lowsec or even hisec. The greater the reward, the greater should be the risk.

Ad 3.
Well to me it looks like the previous topic was for the discussion, this one is to comment on the coming changes.
I would agree that 2 day decay on the best bubble is too low, but it's 2 weeks for the best one and 2 days on the one that costs 720k ISK in crafting mats/minerals. Medium t1 is 2,5 mil ISK. Large t1 is 9,2m ISK. That's almost nothing.

T2 is also fairly cheap: small - 3m, medium - 8m and large 18m in mats + the related invention costs. For 1 week of protection.

The best one (syndicate large) is also fairly cheap as it cost 8,8m in mats + 30 mil and 45k lp to the bp --- for the 2 week long warp bubble. And even less ISK and lp for medium or small one.

I think it should be 12 hours for t1, 24-48 hours for t2 and 48-92 hours for syndicate since they are so cheap to craft. And if you pick them up yourself they reset the timers.

You can earn enough ISK to place 20-30 bubbles in a couple of hours of ratting/mining with 1 account. Mining with rorq is more than 200m ISK an hour per account, ratting in the cheap VNI is 70m an hour per account. Moreover, you can redeploy those bubbles every now and then.

Oranen wrote:
Lower the materials/cost drastically and make the bubble only last as long as the person who deployed it is in the area/online/or downtime.


Look at the numbers above. They are already dirt cheap.
Cable Uta
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#152 - 2017-02-22 14:27:00 UTC
DS9 wrote:


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Scooping and re-deploying a bubble would reset the decay timer.


Could you please explain how this will work?

I think it would be cool if anyone could scoop the bubble if it's left there for let's say 12 hours and decide what to do with it.
Otherwise with those long, 2 week timers and making it that only the bubble owner has an ability to redeploy the bubble, things won't change and most gates will still have 100 bubbles causing lag and problems.


Any bubble has to be unanchored to be scooped, so doubt the can make it "anyone can take" simply cause it needs to be unanchored :P
Escobar Slim III
YOLOSWAGHASHTAGDOLLARBILLZSWIMMINGPOOLICECREAMS
#153 - 2017-02-22 14:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Escobar Slim III
I personally believe that some of the nullsec are not to like this change for the rats they kill the shield wall be move and expire at time. and some of the nullsec will be unable to do so because some people out there in the nullsec don't have maps and I believe that our education like such as in the Drone Lands and the Detorid everywhere like such as Delve, and, I believe that they should learn to make accomodate the change, or take our education by the PvP and lose bubble and some ships in case they still find a rat. this should help the hunter, should help minimize the afk empire and should help the Stabber and the Interdiction, so we will be able to build up our future killboards for our clone children who do not hide behind shield bubble and hide behind intel. This is a change for better and we hope to make more kills but one maybe change like as been said before in the thread is make the time shorter to one day of more maybe 48 hours which is two days at all said give or take a few hours.

that is all really I am happy for this change mainly for my boys future killboard
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#154 - 2017-02-22 14:37:53 UTC
Escobar Slim III wrote:
I personally believe that some of the nullsec are not to like this change for the rats they kill the shield wall be move and expire at time. and some of the nullsec will be unable to do so because some people out there in the nullsec don't have maps and I believe that our education like such as in the Drone Lands and the Detorid everywhere like such as Delve, and, I believe that they should learn to make accomodate the change, or take our education by the PvP and lose bubble and some ships in case they still find a rat. this should help the hunter, should help minimize the afk empire and should help the Stabber and the Interdiction, so we will be able to build up our future killboards for our clone children who do not hide behind shield bubble and hide behind intel. This is a change for better and we hope to make more kills but one maybe change like as been said before in the thread is make the time shorter to one day of more maybe 48 hours which is two days at all said give or take a few hours.

that is all really I am happy for this change mainly for my boys future killboard


Wow that was a little difficult to read lol, but right on point, if I read it right :P I agree, adaption will need to take place, but more content will be created I think, so that's a huge plus.
Eris Kallisti
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2017-02-22 14:50:58 UTC
Everything sounds great except the killmails for bubbles. How is cluttering the killboards with T1 small bubbles going to help anything? You might as well write a killmail every time I launch a bomb.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2017-02-22 14:53:59 UTC
DS9 wrote:
Ad 1.
Yeah but the idea is that no high reward task should be risk free.
Ratting in null is very lucrative and therefore needs to be associated with some risk.
Therefore escaping, losing a ship or killing the attacker is a part of ratting (or actually any other eve activity) in nullsec, lowsec or even hisec. The greater the reward, the greater should be the risk.

This is a wonderful idea. Let's apply it to:
1) Suicide ganking. Risk : none. Reward: Bounties, Loot, Salvage. Risk/Reward = 0/∞ paradox.
2) Low/null ganking. Risk : insured ship (none). Reward: Bounties, Loot, sometimes Salvage. Risk/Reward = 0/∞ paradox.
3) FW farming. Risk: bomber, stabbed plex ship, w/e. Reward: More than ratting.
4) WH with crit connections farming. Risk : none (nobody can bring enough firepower). Reward: stupid high.
...the list goes on...
"The greater the reward, the greater should be the risk." - there should be either no exceptions or no such rule.

DS9 wrote:
Ad 3.
Well to me it looks like the previous topic was for the discussion, this one is to comment on the coming changes.
I would agree that 2 day decay on the best bubble is too low, but it's 2 weeks for the best one and 2 days on the one that costs 720k ISK in crafting mats/minerals. Medium t1 is 2,5 mil ISK. Large t1 is 9,2m ISK. That's almost nothing.
T2 is also fairly cheap: small - 3m, medium - 8m and large 18m in mats + the related invention costs. For 1 week of protection.

The best one (syndicate large) is also fairly cheap as it cost 8,8m in mats + 30 mil and 45k lp to the bp --- for the 2 week long warp bubble. And even less ISK and lp for medium or small one.

I think it should be 12 hours for t1, 24 hours for t2 and 48 hours for syndicate since they are so cheap to craft. And if you pick them up yourself they reset the timers.

You can earn enough ISK to place 20-30 bubbles in a couple of hours of ratting/mining with 1 account. Mining with rorq is more than 200m ISK an hour per account, ratting in the cheap VNI is 70m an hour per account. Moreover, you can redeploy those bubbles every now and then.


1 week max. 2 weeks bubbles are basically inaccessible, and their cost with killmails would be a ****** magnet, so they cannot be used.
That's "almost nothing" for 2 days. Now since you're going to lose all your bubbles every 2 days, multiply 25 large bubbles (that is after downsizing it to "adapt to new changes", minimal for 1 constellation) by 15 to get a monthly cost and add 1 hour/day (2 hours every 2 days) of not making ISK to place them. Also plex to do it in neutral alt, otherwise the intel cost would reach stupid values. How much are we at? 1 bil per month plex, plus 250 million 25 large bubbles every 2 days (it only takes one camper to not let you bring your ship to redeploy them) - overall cost of 4.75 billion ISK per month, after downsizing your bubble network. With your proposal of 24 hours, the cost is at 8.5 billion ISK per month. Clearly you cannot into math.
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#157 - 2017-02-22 14:58:53 UTC
Eris Kallisti wrote:
Everything sounds great except the killmails for bubbles. How is cluttering the killboards with T1 small bubbles going to help anything? You might as well write a killmail every time I launch a bomb.


I think it's really to just raise awareness of them and make players be more accountable for them. Instead of just set it and forget it, there will be a negative impact on them or their corporation for doing so. It's more of a negative thing for stat whores, but I can see it as not being negative.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#158 - 2017-02-22 15:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Quote:


Two days for all T1 bubbles
One week for all T2 bubbles
Two weeks for all Syndicate bubbles



It should be...

- 12 hours for all T1 bubbles
- 24 hours for all T2 bubbles
- 48 hours for all Faction


As it stands right now, the amount of ISK per hour against the cost of replacing bubbles is way off! Especially when you can just scoop them and put them down again to reset the timers...and hell, this IS Nullsec we're talking about here! They'll have bots running around replacing those!

Change the HP so it's lowered with a reinforcement timer, but the bubble is off during said reinforcement timer. Make the bubbles follow structure anchoring ranges too!
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#159 - 2017-02-22 15:02:01 UTC
[/quote]
1 week max. 2 weeks bubbles are basically inaccessible, and their cost with killmails would be a ****** magnet, so they cannot be used.
That's "almost nothing" for 2 days. Now since you're going to lose all your bubbles every 2 days, multiply 25 large bubbles (that is after downsizing it to "adapt to new changes", minimal for 1 constellation) by 15 to get a monthly cost and add 1 hour/day (2 hours every 2 days) of not making ISK to place them. Also plex to do it in neutral alt, otherwise the intel cost would reach stupid values. How much are we at? 1 bil per month plex, plus 250 million 25 large bubbles every 2 days (it only takes one camper to not let you bring your ship to redeploy them) - overall cost of 4.75 billion ISK per month, after downsizing your bubble network. With your proposal of 24 hours, the cost is at 8.5 billion ISK per month. Clearly you cannot into math.
[/quote]

I don't think it's fair to say that the entire cost of a PLEX is calculated into this. If all you have that alt for is this, then you're doing eve wrong. Also, unless those bubbles get popped, all you have to do is maintain them. I think I read earlier, you can scoop them, then redeploy them? I think it's all about cleaning space up a bit, making people pay more attention to the bubbles they are placing and it adds more content.
James Zealot
BENEVOLENC3
Evictus.
#160 - 2017-02-22 15:03:44 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Quote:


Two days for all T1 bubbles
One week for all T2 bubbles
Two weeks for all Syndicate bubbles



It should be...

- 12 hours for all T1 bubbles
- 24 hours for all T2 bubbles
- 48 hours for all Faction


As it stands right now, the amount of ISK per hour against the cost of replacing bubbles is way off! Especially when you can just scoop them and put them down again to reset the timers...and hell, this IS Nullsec we're talking about here! They'll have bots running around replacing those!

Change the HP so it's lowered with a reinforcement timer, but the bubble is off during said reinforcement timer. Make the bubbles follow structure anchoring ranges too!


There you go, reinforcement timer might not be a bad idea. I do agree though, they'll have bots for that lol. Should just start saying "they have a bot for that." for everything.