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The Noctis and it's fall from grace (Touching on comments from CSM 11)
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#21 - 2017-02-16 14:38:05 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture.

OK you got me scratching my head on this one.
There are already insta lock ships in the game so how is adding a sebo bonus to the Noctis going to change anything about gate camps? But the real question is simple this do you really think people would take a sebo bonus-ed Noctis that still takes 5 to 8 seconds to lock a frigate when they could take an interceptor that takes 1 to 2 seconds to lock the same target?
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2017-02-17 01:43:23 UTC
Most ppl sayin g that to go get noctis to salvage takes alot of time. Then why we dont give some warp speed and acceleration to Noctis?
It also could use some agility too.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#23 - 2017-02-17 13:59:19 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Sensor boost bonus???? NO ship in Eve should get this. I'm good with gate camping, but every gate camp in New Eden will instantly incorporate any ship that gets a sebo bonus into their numbers. Gate camps are in a decent place right now and really don't need that kind of help. You would just create a bigger version of the tackling venture.

OK you got me scratching my head on this one.
There are already insta lock ships in the game so how is adding a sebo bonus to the Noctis going to change anything about gate camps? But the real question is simple this do you really think people would take a sebo bonus-ed Noctis that still takes 5 to 8 seconds to lock a frigate when they could take an interceptor that takes 1 to 2 seconds to lock the same target?



I'll approach this from the other side, it may be a bit more sensible for you. This is a salvaging ship. Its design, role and intent is to lock on to space junk and process it. There is no need for quicker locking. That established lock time is factored into the game as part of the cost of doing business. Wrecks aren't going to get away. Have a little patience.

The MTU killed the noctis. The ship is fine and the deployable is an enabler for lazy folk. Surprise surprise, the lazy folk are now ignoring the benefit of the MTU (setting it as the new normal) and requesting that the noctis be incrementally 'improved' to make the game 'better'.

Here's how this plays out - You ninnies get your noctis upgrade so that it is again 'useful' in your eyes. For the 5 months after that everyone will be like 'CCP rocks, this change is great, life is good and so on' 5 months after that (once players settle in to the new norm) it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T2 version that also salvages what it tractors". Skip ahead 3 years and it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T3 version that warps to the next site when it's done" (because warping around picking up loot is just toooooo much of a time waster. 5 years ahead - looting takes too long, give marauders a space magic shipping bonus that just teleports loot back to my home station so I don't have to waste my valuable millennial minutes taking stuff back to station (this magic teleport feature should have a check box for 'process into minerals' button because we all agree that selecting and processing loot is boring and should be automated)

Fix the MTU (the actual problem with the noctis). You have a couple of options to correct the MTU.

1. Make it lootable by anyone. Make it a simple machine that doesn't have the ability to distinguish who is emptying it.
2. Make it into a mobile tractor uinit. Wrecks get tractored to, but it has no functionality as far as putting loot anywhere. Just a tractor unit and nothing more. The result would be all wrecks are pulled into it, but no loot is transferred into it.
3. Remove it from the game
4. Remove the uninteresting time waster (the collection and processing of loot/salvage) from the game, change rigs over to minerals for production and then delete MTU, noctis, salvagers, tractor beams and all the other boring stuff associated with loot accrual from the game.

(some of these are real proposals and some are cynical joking - I doubt you can sort them properly)
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2017-02-17 15:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolfgang Jannesen
I'm absolutely against changes to the MTU. They've made mission running and salvaging exceptionally efficient, and they shouldn't be removed for a ship that's already had its role filled admirably,

Another strong point, the Noctis is stupid expensive. A MTU costs a couple mil.

EDIT: 'Make everyone suffer so I can fly my overpriced ship' is not a convincing argument. I don't think this thread has proven that the Noctis is a necessary piece of equipment,
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#25 - 2017-02-17 16:03:52 UTC
I'm also against any changes to the MTU. Just as they found a new enhances role for the Orca and Rorqual, maybe they need to do the same for the Noctis.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#26 - 2017-02-17 16:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
I'm absolutely against changes to the MTU. They've made mission running and salvaging exceptionally efficient, and they shouldn't be removed for a ship that's already had its role filled admirably,

Another strong point, the Noctis is stupid expensive. A MTU costs a couple mil.

EDIT: 'Make everyone suffer so I can fly my overpriced ship' is not a convincing argument. I don't think this thread has proven that the Noctis is a necessary piece of equipment,



I'm assuming that when you say 'suffer' you in fact describing the literally unbearable task of locking a wreck, activating a tractor beam and waiting for it to be pulled into the noctis? It would be a new to me definition of the word, so I'd like to be clear as I expand my horizons to take in the length and breadth of 'suffering' as it applies to the human condition.


Did I summarize your summarization correctly?

Overpriced??? I purchase them in stacks of 5 because that's the practical thing to do when living in a wh. Things get blown up there. When compared to the loot they bring in to my corp - overpriced isn't a term I would use. From the wh perspective, its role hasn't been removed. I don't want to bore you with game play issues that don't really come up in HS, but a ship can warp to a site at range then warp directly onto an mtu - the same is not true for a ship. That adds a margin of safety and takes away an easy slam dunk warp in for pvp folks as far as loot collection in wh goes. Just a side note about wh pve - the loot IS the site. It's not some bothersome side note to whine about while blitzing level 4 missions.

If you consider the noctis over priced - get better at Eve.


Overall I'm not really passionate about the noctis. I don't spend much time pondering the MTU either. The OP introduced a problem statement and I provided some feedback. I'll give you some feedback - game changes to the noctis don't and shouldn't consider a price comparison between the ship and an MTU. If that's where you're coming from, go back to the beginning and start over with game balance and game play impact in mind in lieu of easier, more efficient (bigger wording for easier) and the few million isk difference between a noctis and an MTU.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2017-02-17 17:32:07 UTC
Oh no, by suffer I mean removing a feature that's been added to make a ship more important. The MTU is a convenient way of grabbing all the wrecks, grabbing a Noctis to grab all your wrecks is a less convenient way. Making backwards progress to buff the Noctis doesn't make any sense.

If the Noctis has strong use in Wormholes then its role is apparent and nothing needs to get changed. That thing is several million beyond what I'll spend to salvage.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#28 - 2017-02-17 19:31:32 UTC
may be the Noctis problem is ships slot layout? what if CCP increase the number of middle and low slots?
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#29 - 2017-02-17 22:02:49 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Scuzzy Logic wrote:


So, here I am pondering: Would just giving the Noctis a salvage bay (think about the size of the Porpoise's ore hold) make it rise from the ashes?

If not, what do you think could be the Noctis' saving grace?


I don't think the bay really matters, salvage is small and loot to for the most part. Hell you mentioned Salvage Dessies and they have smaller bays.

I think for the most part the tractor bonus is a lost cause, sure MTUs are slower but anything else is way more effort (even is you doubled or tripled the notics tractor bonus it would still be more effort)

For me (in WHs) I would like them to be faster, Nullifed and cloaky but that's a dream. At least then they would be good for salvaging in dangerous areas (currently using salvage T3).

I'd like to see a tractor module that acts like a MTU

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#30 - 2017-02-18 12:31:04 UTC
Here's a way to make the Noctis viable again......

Let it be the only ship that can salvage capitals (freighters, carriers, dreads, etc).

Titans would still be unsalvageable, of course.

CCP could introduce a Noctis-only salvager module to allow this to be done, or simply make the fitting requirements insane and give the Noctis huge bonuses to let it be able to fit said module.

Oh, and capital salvaging shouldn't be fast...say a cycle time of 5 minutes?

Slightly less with skills, of course, but no faster than 2.5 minutes with max skills/rigs/module bonuses.


Oh, and while salvaging caps it can't be repped/boosted/aided in any way at all, and can't move either.

While we are at it, bloom its sig as if its using a MWD as long at this capital salvager is being used.

Now push the button, Frank.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2017-02-18 15:14:54 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Here's a way to make the Noctis viable again......

Let it be the only ship that can salvage capitals (freighters, carriers, dreads, etc).

Titans would still be unsalvageable, of course.

CCP could introduce a Noctis-only salvager module to allow this to be done, or simply make the fitting requirements insane and give the Noctis huge bonuses to let it be able to fit said module.

Oh, and capital salvaging shouldn't be fast...say a cycle time of 5 minutes?

Slightly less with skills, of course, but no faster than 2.5 minutes with max skills/rigs/module bonuses.


Oh, and while salvaging caps it can't be repped/boosted/aided in any way at all, and can't move either.

While we are at it, bloom its sig as if its using a MWD as long at this capital salvager is being used.

Now push the button, Frank.


Salvaging dreadnaught, I didn't realize it was possible to turn the Noctis into even more of a waste of resources.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#32 - 2017-02-18 16:25:33 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll approach this from the other side, it may be a bit more sensible for you. This is a salvaging ship. Its design, role and intent is to lock on to space junk and process it. There is no need for quicker locking. That established lock time is factored into the game as part of the cost of doing business. Wrecks aren't going to get away. Have a little patience.

Not going to fall for bait and switch tactics here. YOU specifically stated that giving the Noctis a bonus to sebo use would break gate camps, I want an explanation of how and why you think it would break gate camps.

Since you did change tactics here I will respond to that as well by giving you justification for the faster lock times.
After considerable time invested in experimentation ORE determined that due to the scattered nature of the remnants of a destroyed ship (explosions and all that stuff) they were extremely difficult to lock so they simply equipped the ship with a stronger sensor system to compensate. Bonus here is that the extra equipment needed for these stronger sensors helps to explain the relatively high mass to volume ratio of the Noctis.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
The MTU killed the noctis. The ship is fine and the deployable is an enabler for lazy folk. Surprise surprise, the lazy folk are now ignoring the benefit of the MTU (setting it as the new normal) and requesting that the noctis be incrementally 'improved' to make the game 'better'.

There is nothing you can do to the Noctis that will get the single character mission runners to stop using the MTU, the only way to get them to stop using it would be to nerf it into a useless state, despite what you may think I do not want that to happen.
What I DO WANT is for CCP to make some changes to the Noctis that benefit those of us that do use it, you know a few simple changes that have no chance of breaking the game like faster lock times, reduced align times, some adjustments to the various bonuses etc.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Here's how this plays out - You ninnies get your noctis upgrade so that it is again 'useful' in your eyes. For the 5 months after that everyone will be like 'CCP rocks, this change is great, life is good and so on' 5 months after that (once players settle in to the new norm) it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T2 version that also salvages what it tractors". Skip ahead 3 years and it will be "to the forums lads, the MTU is obsolete, it needs a T3 version that warps to the next site when it's done" (because warping around picking up loot is just toooooo much of a time waster. 5 years ahead - looting takes too long, give marauders a space magic shipping bonus that just teleports loot back to my home station so I don't have to waste my valuable millennial minutes taking stuff back to station (this magic teleport feature should have a check box for 'process into minerals' button because we all agree that selecting and processing loot is boring and should be automated)

The MTU best serves the player with a single account, or a player that prefers to use a single character for missions etc. The Noctis best serves the players like me that are willing to use two characters for our mission etc and Nothing you can do to the Noctis will EVER change this. If CCP kept this in mind when making changes it would eliminate all but the fringe elements and their calls for changes and no matter what you do there will always be those fringe elements.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2017-02-18 17:07:27 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Have a little patience.

Wanted to deal with this separately.
Perhaps CCP needs to INCREASE the lock times on ALL ships by 5 to 10 seconds and remove the sebo or anything else that might reduce those lock times because you need to have a little patience. Who cares that most of your potential targets will get away while you wait for your target lock, just think of all that wonderful patience you will need. Then you can double down on the wonderful patience as you endlessly roam the EvE Universe looking for that player who is AFK or who is simply to slow to recognize what is happening. And after you have had all of this patience and you finally get that kill just think how sweet it will be. Crazy stupid idea and it would be terrible for the game. Yet your comment about having patience as we wait for the Noctis to lock a frigate wreck is just as crazy and stupid. As long as it was done with any degree of common sense reducing the lock times for the Noctis will not affect any one or anything in the game EXCEPT the Noctis pilot.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#34 - 2017-02-18 21:13:46 UTC
Wolfgang Jannesen wrote:
Salvaging dreadnaught, I didn't realize it was possible to turn the Noctis into even more of a waste of resources.



Read it again.

I didn't say make it a dread that can salvage.

I said let it be able to salvage dreads/freighter/etc wrecks.

If CCP want to make it more expensive to make, that's on them.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#35 - 2017-02-19 01:38:12 UTC
The problem with the Noctis is that it's an expensive glass salvager that can't survive most activities without massive fleet support, which defeats the while point of salvaging as you go.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#36 - 2017-02-19 05:10:59 UTC
It's not expensive (unless you consider t1 BC's expensive) and It can fit a very tough tank, if one can be bothered to fit a tank, that is.

And it even has a drone bay, now.

Hell, you can run l2 sec missions with it for the lolz.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#37 - 2017-02-19 11:10:58 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
It's not expensive (unless you consider t1 BC's expensive) and It can fit a very tough tank, if one can be bothered to fit a tank, that is.

And it even has a drone bay, now.
Hell, you can run l2 sec missions with it for the lolz.

Compared to a MTU - it's expensive.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Charley Varrick
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2017-02-19 13:47:11 UTC
Here is a crazy thought....Allow it to tractor all wrecks, not just those owned by the player. It could then be a true salvage ship. It could clean up all those wrecks left behind in belts and missions that some players don't bother with and make some decent ISK pulling illegal salvage. The trade off is it would become flagged and be a big fat juicy target!
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2017-02-19 14:30:42 UTC
Charley Varrick wrote:
Here is a crazy thought....Allow it to tractor all wrecks, not just those owned by the player. It could then be a true salvage ship. It could clean up all those wrecks left behind in belts and missions that some players don't bother with and make some decent ISK pulling illegal salvage. The trade off is it would become flagged and be a big fat juicy target!


Noctis can do this already, check your safety settings.
Charley Varrick
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2017-02-19 15:56:17 UTC
Could have sworn I tried that once and it wouldn't let me. All this time I been missing out! This info just opened up a whole new level to EVE! Thanks!