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Its not fare punish PVE players with boredom. MORE FUN FOR PVE !

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Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#181 - 2017-02-17 13:00:54 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
At the lowest design level, playing a game must feel better than not playing it. PvE in EVE is not even supposed to do that, rather it's a toll you pay for a ticket to a chance of having some fun with PvP.
Nah.

PvE in Eve is essentially the same as playing defense in competitive game. You accept being at risk to the other players in exchange for resources. Those resources make you stronger, but the act of collecting them makes you a target for other players who want those same resources, or just want to see if they can make you explode.

The sense of progress and consequence of your PvE efforts should come from the fact you did them in the face of the other players. If you do not find enjoyment in that, you are probably playing the wrong game. None of this says PvE should not or cannot be enjoyable on its own, but you are really missing the bigger picture if you view PvE is pointless busywork so you can engage in consensual PvP fights on your own terms. It isn't. It is an integral part of the game design where we all serve as content for each other and are competing for power in a shared, persistent universe.

Sure, some players don't like playing defense, either because they can't handle losing to another human being, or because they find that part of the game boring. Fair enough. Some players only like that part of the game, scoring points against the computer opponent while avoiding the players hunting them. To each their own. But to have a viable PvP game where players are the content, players must take their turns on defense. If you really hate it, CCP has kindly provided a mechanism where you can pay other players to do it for you with PLEX. But this idea that you are vulnerable to the other players is a core part of the game and always has been.

The current PvE is largely stale, sometimes simplistic to the point of being the distilled essence of pure boredom (AKA mining), and some of it is long-over due for a revamp of the rewards and difficulty (I am looking at you Incursions). By all means, CCP should make more fun and engaging PvE if that is possible (which it may not be with the resources available), but certainly they could make it more diverse (and they are, slowly). However, activity-based resource generation that puts you at risk to the other players is a key plank of the game design. It isn't going anywhere whether you enjoy it or not.

Bottom line though is that if you don't like playing Eve, you shouldn't waste your time playing Eve (or complaining about playing Eve on the Eve Online forums). PvE content that puts you at risk to other players, just like the sometimes tedious travel that also puts you at risk to the other players, is part of the cost of being part of a living universe where actions have consequences and meaning. If you just want resources to auto-spawn into your hanger so you can just engage in your meaningless space Bushido PvP, or insta-travel to some arena battle like some WoW group finder, you are simply just playing the wrong game.

You can whine about Eve not being what you want it to be, but I you aren't going to find much sympathy from the developers who are building the game as they see fit or the people who do like Eve the way it is.

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#182 - 2017-02-17 13:26:44 UTC
Reiisha wrote:


There's a part of the game which is objectively mostly *not fun* to participate in.

Why is it a part of the game at all? Just remove it if you don't plan on making it fun.
`

The thing is that for those of us who actually like it it is already fun. My Alliance just moved to a part of null that has Sansha's Nation rats after months of living in the north (Guristas space). Having to adjust to new NPcs, new Ewar, figuring out how best to make isk off those npcs ("do i salvage and go for fewer escalation chances per hour, or do i bank it all on DED sites), figuring out how to fit (or more accurately "re-figuring", It's been like 5 years since I lived in Sansha space), remembering all the safety tricks like which wave has the most frigates so I can bait a trap for some Stratios or Orthrus idiot who doesn't yet know better to not interupt my ratting etc etc.

What you inadvertantly said is an exampe of the divide amongst PVE ( a divide people like Fazmarai pretends doesn't exists as he pretends to speak for all of us). Those of us who are fine with how EVE's PVE works and actually like it,, and PVErs who would be better off playing some other , more PVE centric game that isn't EVE (who who keep lobbying CCP to change the game to fit their irrational wants concerning "fun PVE").

The PVE in this game is fine, it does what it's supposed to. it provides a means of building wealth for non-PVErs as well as a Puzzle to figure out for those of us who actively seek PVE. The people who complain about PVE in thiks game want some magic carpet ride crap that makes them feel special and powerful and relevent. EVE (whether PVP or PVE) does not and should not ever do that.


Quote:

If you don't remove it, why not make it fun? The actual result remains the same. If more people were to join EVE and participate in those activities (well, because they're fun), isn't the natural result that market prices will go down (if ever so slightly) and thus the PvP opportunities will increase, since there's also more people doing PvE you can chase down?

How is this not a win-win?[/quoute]

Devaluing the rewards of my experience is not any kind of win win. And it wouldn't work that way anyway, because the standard MMIO PVEr doesn't want to play in a PVP sandbox game where they can't control (via some kind of flag) when pvp happens. EVE's PVE isn't the reason mor eMMO PVEr's don't play, non-consensual PVP is and if you change that aspect (ie you let people come in an PVE in perfect safety), well that came couldn't call it self EVE anymore.

PVErs like me LOVE the fact that you can't just shut out PVP.. It means that not only can we get the PVE rewards (isk, loot etc) from a situation, but we can also reap the much more exciting reward of watcing a PVPrs EXPLODED when they (stupidly) tried to stop us.

[quote]
Sure, there's piorities to be set, but there's a lot you can do to make the PvE more interesting without it affecting PvP development time. Game development, or software development in general, is not a black and white planning sheet - In fact, you may find that making certain PvE parts more fun are also parts which are directly or indirectly used or usable in PvP.


CCp tried. They are called Drifters. No one like's Drifters. Drifters were wasted development time, because CCP listened to all this "make PVE better!" crap instead of doing the more simple things they could have down like make more missions and anomalies and Epic Arcs or create more engineering challenges like they did with the very popular Burner Missions.



And i said all the above at the last CSM/CCP PVE townhall. For some reason there are more people talking about PVE in this useless General Discussion thread than what showed up at the townhall where actual progress could be made....
Reiisha
#183 - 2017-02-17 14:25:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCp tried. They are called Drifters. No one like's Drifters. Drifters were wasted development time, because CCP listened to all this "make PVE better!" crap instead of doing the more simple things they could have down like make more missions and anomalies and Epic Arcs or create more engineering challenges like they did with the very popular Burner Missions.

And i said all the above at the last CSM/CCP PVE townhall. For some reason there are more people talking about PVE in this useless General Discussion thread than what showed up at the townhall where actual progress could be made....


They made one attempt and failed at it, because they basically stuck to the normal NPC conventions and didn't do much else than making a slightly different kind of BS rat. Same with burner missions, really. It's basically just a variant of the 'kill 10 rats' quest.

Besides, the part which really needs some loving is mining. Ratting PvE is fine - I can understand that people like it when you do it 'properly', when you min-max it and there's some risk involved if you make a mistake. Mining however is 'click and wait 3 minutes' for the most part, where the most involved activity is watching local.

The role and position of PvE should not change. What works now can still work later. All it needs is some variation, and in some cases some more involvement (and in return, a variance in rewards).

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#184 - 2017-02-17 14:39:04 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
CCp tried. They are called Drifters. No one like's Drifters. Drifters were wasted development time, because CCP listened to all this "make PVE better!" crap instead of doing the more simple things they could have down like make more missions and anomalies and Epic Arcs or create more engineering challenges like they did with the very popular Burner Missions.

And i said all the above at the last CSM/CCP PVE townhall. For some reason there are more people talking about PVE in this useless General Discussion thread than what showed up at the townhall where actual progress could be made....


They made one attempt and failed at it, because they basically stuck to the normal NPC conventions and didn't do much else than making a slightly different kind of BS rat. Same with burner missions, really. It's basically just a variant of the 'kill 10 rats' quest.

Besides, the part which really needs some loving is mining. Ratting PvE is fine - I can understand that people like it when you do it 'properly', when you min-max it and there's some risk involved if you make a mistake. Mining however is 'click and wait 3 minutes' for the most part, where the most involved activity is watching local.

The role and position of PvE should not change. What works now can still work later. All it needs is some variation, and in some cases some more involvement (and in return, a variance in rewards).



One attempt?

You must be new, since 2011 CCP has been stuffing the game with "new pve" and "better ai" that has mostly failed. Most of us who actually enjoy PVE are running the same missions and anomalies from the 2003-2006 era than doing then 'new stuff'. Look at Dotlan maps and see where all the npc kills are. Yep, lvl 4 mission hubs and null sec systems with low truesec (thus loads of sanctums and havens).

But mining is also fine. Mining is about aquisition , the fun in mining comes from getting paid for Ore, and from using that Ore to build stuff, and from finding ever faster ways to collect Ore, and from running multi-ship/character mining ops 9which is only possible because the act of mining is so basic). People who want a 'more interactive solo mining experience' already have it. It's called Exploration (complete with a mini-game).

I belong to a Mining corp (even though I am a ratter by profession), no one in my corp complains about mining being boring, hell THATS what they like about it. Changing that in some vain attempt to entice more people to do it would be folly.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2017-02-17 14:49:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


CCp tried. They are called Drifters. No one like's Drifters. Drifters were wasted development time, because CCP listened to all this "make PVE better!" crap instead of doing the more simple things they could have down like make more missions and anomalies and Epic Arcs or create more engineering challenges like they did with the very popular Burner Missions.



And i said all the above at the last CSM/CCP PVE townhall. For some reason there are more people talking about PVE in this useless General Discussion thread than what showed up at the townhall where actual progress could be made....


Drifters are also not well though out. They essentially added the long known mechanic in other MMO where a boss/mob perform a powerful cast to which you have to react in the right way or die except they forgot to design a way to react to it.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#186 - 2017-02-17 14:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


CCp tried. They are called Drifters. No one like's Drifters. Drifters were wasted development time, because CCP listened to all this "make PVE better!" crap instead of doing the more simple things they could have down like make more missions and anomalies and Epic Arcs or create more engineering challenges like they did with the very popular Burner Missions.



And i said all the above at the last CSM/CCP PVE townhall. For some reason there are more people talking about PVE in this useless General Discussion thread than what showed up at the townhall where actual progress could be made....


Drifters are also not well though out. They essentially added the long known mechanic in other MMO where a boss/mob perform a powerful cast to which you have to react in the right way or die except they forgot to design a way to react to it.


In the beginning it wasn't actually like that. I still get a kick out of wathicng the Cerb kiting Drifter's video, in fine EVE PVE jock fashion that player figured out how to use only what was available to defeat the problem.

And then CCP promptly rewards this kind of inovation by nerfing it lol. To this day I STILL don't understand what the point of drifters are. At this point our only interaction with them is shouting at new bros to NOT shoot the Lancers that appear on gates.

Drifter content is on the same level of uselessness as the "mystery beacons" you find in various systems across New Eden that have a few npcs in them that you kill and then....nothing.
Wolfgang Jannesen
Czerka.
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#187 - 2017-02-17 15:00:49 UTC
Reiterating: whether or not CCP adds new NPC's and events and complexes, if you don't basically enjoy killing NPC's then the majority of PvE is going to be no fun, in the same way you won't enjoy Battlefield 1942 if you don't like shooting things and driving tanks.
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