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Its not fare punish PVE players with boredom. MORE FUN FOR PVE !

First post
Author
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#161 - 2017-02-15 02:05:55 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:

The problem is some PVP players are terrified that if some other area of the game receives some improvement they will be unable to say EVE is a PVP game.

Newsflash! It isn't.

It is a sandbox that CONTAINS PVP elements.
Someone shooting you when unarmed doesn't mean it's a PVP encounter, that is Ganking.
Thats like saying new york is a PVP environment because there are muggers.

There is something for everyone, for those who say EVE is a PVP game get overyourself. You are outnumbered.


It is a PVP sandbox that has PVE elements. This game is, other than its base level, a PVP game first. That PVE piece it the basement level of the very complicated tower made from PVP. Changes to the basement impact the entire building. If you do it wrong the building will fall down.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#162 - 2017-02-15 03:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
And one can also make the same argument that EVE is a PvE sandbox with PvP elements considering that most income is derived from PvE or, more specifically - PvR (player versus rock). I know, I know... heresy.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2017-02-15 16:27:18 UTC
MadMuppet wrote:
Alderson Point wrote:

The problem is some PVP players are terrified that if some other area of the game receives some improvement they will be unable to say EVE is a PVP game.

Newsflash! It isn't.

It is a sandbox that CONTAINS PVP elements.
Someone shooting you when unarmed doesn't mean it's a PVP encounter, that is Ganking.
Thats like saying new york is a PVP environment because there are muggers.

There is something for everyone, for those who say EVE is a PVP game get overyourself. You are outnumbered.


It is a PVP sandbox that has PVE elements. This game is, other than its base level, a PVP game first. That PVE piece it the basement level of the very complicated tower made from PVP. Changes to the basement impact the entire building. If you do it wrong the building will fall down.


The issue is that the basement is extremely important even if that's not what you are really selling. EVE is like condos. You sell an above ground unit but if the foundation are ****, the above ground unit will turn to **** too. You don't redo the foundation for no reason like you should not redo EVE's PVE from scratch but you should still look at it in case there are fissure for example. Redoing all the mission so they feel new is about as useful as putting carped in the basement of a condo tower. It might be cool for a while but it will get old real fast.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#164 - 2017-02-15 18:42:36 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


What is not good for the game is to let go people who don't use videogames for socializing.

I don't have a problem with player interaction, but it should not be a requirement to enjoy the game, and content that can be enjoyed on your own (solo, but not alone) should be allotted resources in proportion to its weight. Solo players are not an exception, and they are not doing it wrong since that's what they pay CCP for and telling people that they're wrong to give you money is a bad idea. Solo players are the largest minority in EVE, and CCP's efforts to gate all new content behind forceful cooperation / interaction is just alienating them for no reason.

CCP needs people outside to go inside and pay them money, not to convert to the holy church of how right is EVE Online and how wrong is everybody else. If they want to play solo, CCP must give them solo content, or pass without their money and explain its employees why their salaries have become redundant thanks to CCP Seagull's vision of the game.



The translation from Fazmarai speak to English:

Give me what I want CCP (while I pretend I speak for everyone else when in reality next to no one else agree with me) or you will go bankrupt and loses all your real life money.


People have been saying a version of this (I call it the "appeal to CCP's wallet") approach since 2003, and it's never been true. Enopugh people have continuted to play the game to keep it a profitable venture for CCP despite this doomsaying by people who think they want CCP to change the game to suit them.

And I said 'think' because they are lying to themselves, they wouldn't have kept playing for all these years (especially after several public rage quits like what the above quoted poster is known for).

If CCP did up and change the game and offer "better pve" (whatever the hell that is) and "walking in stations" and "more solo content" these complainers would either complain about it not being enough/badly implemented or would just leave the game altoughter to find some other game they don't like so they can pester it's DEVs to make that game better...
tar1901
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#165 - 2017-02-16 08:59:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EVE Online is a PVP game. It is not meant to have 'good' PVE


Something like this said every PvP-online game that failed. Also a game that is now full of Pay2Win features can't claim it's a PvP game. You want to PvP against Alpha Clones that can't train 75% of the skills needed to fly decently?

No online game survived long without a decent PvE. For Eve online fortunately there was no competition so it survived until now. But as you know things are changing. Without a decent PvE this game will fail completely, but I guess CCP is focused now on making more money at the expense of long term game-play

PS. Alpha Clone on Eve is probably the worse F2P implementation I have seen in years. Worse than a Pay2Win Asian MMO.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#166 - 2017-02-16 09:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
tar1901 wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
EVE Online is a PVP game. It is not meant to have 'good' PVE


Something like this said every PvP-online game that failed. Also a game that is now full of Pay2Win features can't claim it's a PvP game. You want to PvP against Alpha Clones that can't train 75% of the skills needed to fly decently?

No online game survived long without a decent PvE. For Eve online fortunately there was no competition so it survived until now. But as you know things are changing. Without a decent PvE this game will fail completely, but I guess CCP is focused now on making more money at the expense of long term game-play

PS. Alpha Clone on Eve is probably the worse F2P implementation I have seen in years. Worse than a Pay2Win Asian MMO.


if you don't like EvE, why are you still here?

go away please!

Just Add Water

Black Pedro
Mine.
#167 - 2017-02-16 12:08:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
And one can also make the same argument that EVE is a PvE sandbox with PvP elements considering that most income is derived from PvE or, more specifically - PvR (player versus rock). I know, I know... heresy.

Not really. CCP explicitly describes what the game is in this statement in the New Pilot FAQ: "[t]he essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment."

You can have PvE in that sandbox, but is always structured such that you are vulnerable to the other players while you are participating PvE. Since you cannot PvE without participating in, or at least there being the possibility of, PvP, Eve is a PvP game. There are no instances, or private areas of the game, or anywhere where you are immune from attack by the other players when you undock.

Just because you can do PvE things like pick flowers or mine copper on a WoW PvP server, doesn't mean it isn't a PvP server. The very fact the game puts you at risk to the other players is what makes it PvP, even if you are not 100% engage in directly fighting the other players all the time.

Eve is a full-time, single universe, PvP game where the players are always vulnerable to each other by design. This magnificent, shared virtual universe and Battle Royale that CCP created is by definition and intention, a PvP game. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be fun and engaging PvE aspects (and CCP should devote some significant effort to this especially since PvE elements make up such a large fraction of the playtime of the total player base), but those aspects are always intended to get players interacting and competing with each other in the larger game, rather than in and of themselves be the content.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#168 - 2017-02-16 12:13:19 UTC
Yeah, I know... Tomatoe - tomatoh.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

tar1901
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#169 - 2017-02-16 12:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: tar1901
Nat Silverguard wrote:


if you don't like EvE, why are you still here?

go away please!


good question.

Edit: Star citizen isn't released yet

bye
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#170 - 2017-02-16 14:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
tar1901 wrote:
Something like this said every PvP-online game that failed.
Using a generalisation like that makes you look dumb. Several hundred multiplayer online first person shooters would like a word with you, they contain zero PvE and are a hugely successful segment of the gaming market.

Quote:
Also a game that is now full of Pay2Win features can't claim it's a PvP game.
Name one feature of Eve that is pay to win, and explain how it is pay to win. I, along with many others, will then proceed to provide examples of people who also thought that various features were pay to win and had it bite them in the ass, in order to explain to you how it isn't.

Quote:
You want to PvP against Alpha Clones that can't train 75% of the skills needed to fly decently?
Character skills != player skills.

Quote:
No online game survived long without a decent PvE. For Eve online fortunately there was no competition so it survived until now. But as you know things are changing. Without a decent PvE this game will fail completely, but I guess CCP is focused now on making more money at the expense of long term game-play
There's always been other multiplayer spaceship games out there, many of them touted to be Eve killers. The latest in those games is Elite Dangerous which, while fun and a halfway decent homage to the original Elite, is not even in the same genre as Eve.

Star Citizen isn't a game, it's a tech demo for vaporware and quite possibly an epic scam that wouldn't be out of place in Eve.

Quote:
PS. Alpha Clone on Eve is probably the worse F2P implementation I have seen in years. Worse than a Pay2Win Asian MMO.
It's little different from WoW's play to level 20 for free, pay if you want to level up further.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#171 - 2017-02-16 14:43:15 UTC
I'm going to be so happy when the full SC game is out and these people who have been banging this drum go play it... and then quietly slink back to EVE Online after they realize that all that 'immersions' and 'safe pve' and 'avatar gameplay' actually turns out to not be what they wanted from a game anyways.

Just like most of them did with all those other games like Star Trek Online, Black Prophecy, the Star Wars games, No Man's Sky and Elite among others.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#172 - 2017-02-16 16:06:21 UTC
Doctor Mabuse wrote:

I've got to disagree. At the moment if you grind for a week, missioning to buy that shiny ship, you really, really don't want to lose it in combat, as it represents a week of mundane activity. This brings a sense of loss and an adrenaline rush that no other game's PVP has.


For me it's the polar opposite. I've done so much of these mundane activities the last 5 years, I can't bring myself to do these chores anymore.

Doctor Mabuse wrote:

If CCP suddenly make missions the greatest thing you can do with a mouse, keyboard and screen, losing that ship has no meaning, because 'Yay! Another weeks missioning!'


I would not mind having to do something fun in order to do something fun as my gameplay loop. The idea of having to slog through boring PVE content for enough space coins to do something enjoyable doesn't strike me as smart design at all. I would like to PVP more, but thinking about the steps involved to replace whatever I'm about to lose makes me not want to lose it. It makes me do some more PVE, I then decide that it takes waaaaay too long to reach my intended goal, and fire up the Xbox for some instant gratification.

I get that this game isn't about instant gratification. Just saying that in the end, it motivates me to seek instant gratification elsewhere instead of hatching colvulted plans to make ISK or grinding away at some threadmill. My eve carreer is ending not with a bang, but with a sigh. I guess it's inevitable but less boring PVE = more longlevity. Even if that longlevity isn't forever.
ISD Chanisa Nemes
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#173 - 2017-02-16 16:14:48 UTC
Removed an off-topic post

[img]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/tww.gif[/img]

ISD Chanisa Nemes

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2017-02-16 17:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'm going to be so happy when the full SC game is out and these people who have been banging this drum go play it... and then quietly slink back to EVE Online after they realize that all that 'immersions' and 'safe pve' and 'avatar gameplay' actually turns out to not be what they wanted from a game anyways.

Just like most of them did with all those other games like Star Trek Online, Black Prophecy, the Star Wars games, No Man's Sky and Elite among others.


I don't always agree with you but that still does not mean I want you to die so don't hold your breath for that release.

More on topic, EVE's PVE will not be made "better" by changing the PVE itself but by changing how we do it. A lot of people would probably enjoy their "required" PVE time if they could do it with friends. It works for mining as is seen by people mining in fleets. I don't see any reason why it should be stupid like it is to rat in gang/fleet. Yes you can currently "cyno-tank" your ship if it has at least a bit of buffer for people to jump to save you but would't it be better to complete sites in a gang and possibly have small battles if someone invade?

Yes I am extremely aware this might absolutely NOT actually turn into small fights if invaded. Pointing this potential flaw is not required. I already know it is actually a good possibility knowing how people play EVE.

ISD Chanisa Nemes wrote:
Removed an off-topic post



Is it bad if I somehow always read that ISD name as chainsaw memes?
tar1901
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#175 - 2017-02-16 18:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: tar1901
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Name one feature of Eve that is pay to win, and explain how it is pay to win.


Omega clone is the P2W and Alpha is the Free2Play. Alpha can't train even basic combat or defense skills to level 4 or 5. Same ship, Omega vs Alpha. And lets not talk about other aspects of the game where you hit the pay-wall. Transport skills .....lv 1 only!

What else, Skill point injectors. Pay and get the skilz.....
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#176 - 2017-02-16 18:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
tar1901 wrote:
Omega clone is the P2W and Alpha is the Free2Play.
Omega is a paid subscription, Alpha is an unlimited length trial with restrictions to ensure it isn't abused.

Quote:
Alpha can't train even basic combat or defense skills to level 4 or 5
Many of the core combat and defence skills are trainable to at least level 4 when using an alpha clone. Try doing some research before making silly claims.

Quote:
Same ship, Omega vs Alpha.
That fight would be more about the players skills than the character skills. Someone with an Alpha with shite character skills, but a good personal knowledge of how to get the most out of his ship despite that, stands a pretty good chance of kicking the ass of an Omega in the same ship with better character skills but little idea on how to use their ship.

Quote:
And lets not talk about other aspects of the game where you hit the pay-wall. Transport skills .....lv 1 only!
Paywall !=P2W. An alpha clone is a free sample, if you want the whole product you go omega.

Quote:
What else, Skill point injectors. Pay and get the skilz.....
Skills which you probably have no idea how to leverage properly, go up against somebody with the exact same skills but who does know how to leverage them properly and there's a extremely good chance that you will lose. Hardly pay to win.

It's the same with PLEX, it can provide a shortcut to "better" things, but it rarely works out that way for someone who has no idea how to use those "better" things.

As I pointed out to you earlier, character skills are not the same as player skills, the former let you sit in the ship, the latter is what make you good at using it effectively.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2017-02-16 19:58:20 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


snipping due to quote limit....



I'll also note that many who make the "pay-to-win" argument also have to confine themselves to a very narrow type of game play, a 1 v. 1 for example. However, there is nothing about EVE that limits one to just that setting. Yes, an alpha clone will be at a disadvantage based on SP all other factors held constant. That last phrase, 'all other factors held constant', is a very strong assumption though.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#178 - 2017-02-16 20:26:03 UTC
tar1901 wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:


if you don't like EvE, why are you still here?

go away please!


good question.

Edit: Star citizen isn't released yet

bye



So, I take it you won't be going anywhere for a while...

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#179 - 2017-02-17 08:03:47 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Doctor Mabuse wrote:

I've got to disagree. At the moment if you grind for a week, missioning to buy that shiny ship, you really, really don't want to lose it in combat, as it represents a week of mundane activity. This brings a sense of loss and an adrenaline rush that no other game's PVP has.


For me it's the polar opposite. I've done so much of these mundane activities the last 5 years, I can't bring myself to do these chores anymore.

Doctor Mabuse wrote:

If CCP suddenly make missions the greatest thing you can do with a mouse, keyboard and screen, losing that ship has no meaning, because 'Yay! Another weeks missioning!'


I would not mind having to do something fun in order to do something fun as my gameplay loop. The idea of having to slog through boring PVE content for enough space coins to do something enjoyable doesn't strike me as smart design at all. I would like to PVP more, but thinking about the steps involved to replace whatever I'm about to lose makes me not want to lose it. It makes me do some more PVE, I then decide that it takes waaaaay too long to reach my intended goal, and fire up the Xbox for some instant gratification.

I get that this game isn't about instant gratification. Just saying that in the end, it motivates me to seek instant gratification elsewhere instead of hatching colvulted plans to make ISK or grinding away at some threadmill. My eve carreer is ending not with a bang, but with a sigh. I guess it's inevitable but less boring PVE = more longlevity. Even if that longlevity isn't forever.


At the lowest design level, playing a game must feel better than not playing it. PvE in EVE is not even supposed to do that, rather it's a toll you pay for a ticket to a chance of having some fun with PvP.
Reiisha
#180 - 2017-02-17 12:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Reiisha
Remiel Pollard wrote:
John 2557 wrote:
Yeah, more fun for PVE please !

After F2P maybe its time to give more fun for PVE. The most boring mission in the world kills lots potetial players.

New player experience has succeed because it created a strong sense of immersion of a story line. CCP should invest more entertainment elements for PVE players. Why don't put AI audio interact into the PVE gameplay, jf people don't like mute it, at least there is a choise.

The sound is one of most important elements for a gameTo compare other space games. Perhaps EVE online has the worse sound effects and cheapest music ever. Of couse you can play your own music. I am just saying, EVE deserves better audio effects and backround music, CCP has treated it halfheartedly for years. It's time to change.





EVE Online is a PVP game. It is not meant to have 'good' PVE, it is meant to have PVE that drives and facilitates PVP. Players that leave because the PVE isn't good enough were never going to stick around for the PVP anyway, which means EVE loses nothing when they leave, because the players that stay for the PVP stay for years. More than a decade even. That's why EVE, with its 'boring' PVE, has been around even longer than WoW.

But, you don't compare EVE to other games, not even other space games, because EVE isn't other games, it is the single most unique gaming experience available right now, with its player-driven single-server environment designed to foster to an incredibly dynamic socioeconomic second only to reality itself.

Now, you've been playing for all but about a few days, I would guess, which means, you might not really understand what EVE actually is just yet. You might be thinking it's something it isn't. I know I did when I was new. Stick around long enough, and you'll learn otherwise. If you want to leave because the missions aren't 'up to scratch', then it doesn't matter much at all to the game, but you'll never know what EVE really has to offer.

Which is your loss, not ours.


'EVE is a PvP' game is a really, really easy and lazy excuse to not do anything about the pathetically boring, actually productive part of the game. The stuff that's being destroyed has to be mined and built somehow.... Why not make that part fun?

It *only* has positive effects. More people engage in PvE, which means cheaper products, which means more PvP, and since more people PvE it also means more targets for PvP people to chase down. It's a win-win.

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


At the lowest design level, playing a game must feel better than not playing it. PvE in EVE is not even supposed to do that, rather it's a toll you pay for a ticket to a chance of having some fun with PvP.


If a part of a videogame isn't fun it shouldn't be in the videogame, EVE included.

If it should be there, it should be made fun. There is absolutely no reason to make anything you do in your spare time feel like work where the fun has been deliberately removed.

Jenn aSide wrote:
The translation from Fazmarai speak to English:

Give me what I want CCP (while I pretend I speak for everyone else when in reality next to no one else agree with me) or you will go bankrupt and loses all your real life money.


People have been saying a version of this (I call it the "appeal to CCP's wallet") approach since 2003, and it's never been true. Enopugh people have continuted to play the game to keep it a profitable venture for CCP despite this doomsaying by people who think they want CCP to change the game to suit them.

And I said 'think' because they are lying to themselves, they wouldn't have kept playing for all these years (especially after several public rage quits like what the above quoted poster is known for).

If CCP did up and change the game and offer "better pve" (whatever the hell that is) and "walking in stations" and "more solo content" these complainers would either complain about it not being enough/badly implemented or would just leave the game altoughter to find some other game they don't like so they can pester it's DEVs to make that game better...


There's a part of the game which is objectively mostly *not fun* to participate in.

Why is it a part of the game at all? Just remove it if you don't plan on making it fun.

If you don't remove it, why not make it fun? The actual result remains the same. If more people were to join EVE and participate in those activities (well, because they're fun), isn't the natural result that market prices will go down (if ever so slightly) and thus the PvP opportunities will increase, since there's also more people doing PvE you can chase down?

How is this not a win-win?

Sure, there's piorities to be set, but there's a lot you can do to make the PvE more interesting without it affecting PvP development time. Game development, or software development in general, is not a black and white planning sheet - In fact, you may find that making certain PvE parts more fun are also parts which are directly or indirectly used or usable in PvP.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...