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Dev blog: Monthly Economic Report - January 2017

First post
Author
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2017-02-10 11:02:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Andrei Rianovski wrote:
maybe we can just take the nullsec regions data out of the report and just give us the empire (and maybe npc null) regions in the report. Most of the nullsec regions are basically negligible in their trade and production values so they're not too interesting anyway.

Did you even read the report? Production in Delve outperforms any highsec region, except for Forge.
Anyway, Guard suggested a discussion, so let's do it. Of course not on reddit, as we have a better place like here.

First of all, should this data be hidden?
I strongly believe that it should be advertised as much as possible. Myself, I joined EVE not because of those epic battles reports or even elite solo PVP podcasts. I joined because I loved the idea of complex player-driven economy. And I bet, I was not the only one who's such a weirdo.
But for a very long time (since forever?) nullsec was very sparse industry-wise. If you wanted to do anything but capital/super production, you should've been doing it in hisec period. Now finally things are shifting. And as they are, it should become a common knowledge. The more folks will know about GDP bloom in nullsec, the more industrialists will give it a try. And do we need more of people in nullsec? Hell yes we do.

The second concern was about in-game vs out-of-game availability.
Well, this is not as straightforward as it seems. In-game features sometimes follow the meta-game, like billboards for example. Some even didn't really work out: eve-voice VS teamspeak. Market aggregators like eve-central were even half-legal for a long time with those cache-scrappers. But even now, we dont have an access to out-of-region market in-game. So this all mess is rather complicated and I think should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
That being said, I for one support more in-game features that allow to collect intel. Structure scanners anyone? Like ship scanners, but can scan what the structure is producing at the moment. That'd be great.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#22 - 2017-02-10 11:46:08 UTC
Andrei Rianovski wrote:
As with many others, I would appreciate the regional data - at least some of it - being included in the MER. Like others, I also have the reason of it's the most interesting part of the MER.

I guess I kinda understand nullsec people not wanting so much of their economic data handed out.... but what about the rest of us? It's stupidly vague information anyway, and, if it's so important then ... maybe we can just take the nullsec regions data out of the report and just give us the empire (and maybe npc null) regions in the report. Most of the nullsec regions are basically negligible in their trade and production values so they're not too interesting anyway.

That way, the few nullbear bosses who care can keep their data secret, and the many rest of us can continue to enjoy the numbers about the regions that are actually interesting enough to pay attention to.

Sorry if I sound insulting, but unless I'm missing something (which is likely the case since we haven't been given any real reasoning aside from "CSM said so") then I'm actually disappointed that "remove the regional data" was the order given and uncompromisingly followed instead of "remove the nullsec regions data" like nobody thought it through at all Ugh


I strongly disagree, looking and comparing the different NullSec-regions is the most fun. How about we instead take all HighSec-regions out?
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#23 - 2017-02-10 12:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
A lot of people in here saying this change only benefits nullseccers: Wrong

Many of us in nullsec are VERY unhappy about the change as well. This is a greedy change by a select few who want to hide as much information as possible about what they do, even though that data doesn't actually put them at any more real risk. We already know what regions stupid amounts of supers are being spit out in, what regions have crazy amounts of shipping going to and from. This data doesn't reveal some big secret production effort, nor help to isolate which sotiyos stuff is being built in. All this change does is screw over the general playerbase so that a few players can disillusion themselves into believing that their CSM puppets have made them safer.

The fact that no member of the CSM actively stood up to this is appalling, that no candidate there was sufficiently knowledgeable to see why this is bad, that the CSM lacks a stunning level of diversity , and builds a sincere belief in myself that it's time to get rid of the CSM.


Do the right thing, CCP, don't get rid of the regional data in the MER. As for anonymizing the regions, you might as well just delete all the regional data. They have the same effect.
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#24 - 2017-02-10 20:54:00 UTC
Another good reason to spread the world in a few weeks : Don't vote for CSM, you will give more power to power blocks.
Rogue Integer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2017-02-10 23:13:40 UTC
Please do not remove the regional stats from the MER. I find them extremely useful for my own industrial and trade planning, and these data are not available via in-game methods.
Rogue Integer
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2017-02-10 23:14:28 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Another good reason to spread the world in a few weeks : Don't vote for CSM, you will give more power to power blocks.


If the people who are not properly represented by large power blocs do not vote, they will continue not to be represented and power blocs will continue to control the CSM.
Andrei Rianovski
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2017-02-11 08:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrei Rianovski
I have no problem with people disagreeing to my points.

I'm happy to see that so far everybody posting here (and some of the CSM?) were against removing the regional stats from the MER.

Let's be realistic: the CSM is intended to represent the players, but it's far from a perfect system. There's probably only a few dozen players who want the regional stats removed from the MER, and hundreds or thousands of players who want it to stay in the MER. Right?!

As mentioned above, it's neat too to see nullsec people actually starting to produce and trade more. That is what the new structures were intended to help do - spread out production and trade from the few great hubs, and make New Eden's trade and production landscape more varied and interesting. The regional stats are showing us that it's actually happening and that IS interesting ...

Another way to think of it... keep the stats or remove them, will any players be so upset to quit over it? In both directions, the answer is no, so, why make the change? The only difference is this:

1) Keep the stats - a handful of players (paranoid alliance leaders and nobody else) are a little uncomfortable about some free data
2) Lose the stats - hundreds or thousands of players are sad and disappointed that CCP caved to the request of a few

Just pick the lesser of two evils...
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2017-02-11 20:42:33 UTC
Faith Winters wrote:
Why?

Certain players are trying to maintain a long-standing partisan narrative that Goonswarm don't use their space 'properly', that their occupancy of Delve is an aberration against other alliances who would make 'better' use of that space, and therefore CCP should impose further nerfs to 0.0 to make it harder for Goons to exist.

Having inconvenient facts rubbed in their faces on a regular basis through CCP reports makes that narrative harder to uphold.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Alicia Dnari
Dnari Mining and Manufacturing
#29 - 2017-02-12 02:21:39 UTC
I'm with those who would prefer not to see regional information deleted from the MER.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#30 - 2017-02-13 07:10:35 UTC
Got to weigh in on the regional debate.

While it may indicate which region supers are being produced in, it doesn't indicate which system, or who is flying them, or when they are online.
A little bit of intel to indicate what alliances may be massively increasing their super numbers is not a bad thing, or an indication of which entire region to search for their production facilities. Free tactical info of exactly when those supers are online is the bad thing.

Especially since there is no way in game to bribe random baseliners working at construction facilities for low level intel, etc etc. The game should not need alts being used as spies to be played, and breaking down the statistics and estimating what they mean is both not 100% accurate intel, and requires some work, about on relation with the reward since everyone knows certain alliances build supers anyway.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#31 - 2017-02-13 07:58:12 UTC
Andrei Rianovski wrote:
I have no problem with people disagreeing to my points.

I'm happy to see that so far everybody posting here (and some of the CSM?) were against removing the regional stats from the MER.

Let's be realistic: the CSM is intended to represent the players, but it's far from a perfect system. There's probably only a few dozen players who want the regional stats removed from the MER, and hundreds or thousands of players who want it to stay in the MER. Right?!

As mentioned above, it's neat too to see nullsec people actually starting to produce and trade more. That is what the new structures were intended to help do - spread out production and trade from the few great hubs, and make New Eden's trade and production landscape more varied and interesting. The regional stats are showing us that it's actually happening and that IS interesting ...

Another way to think of it... keep the stats or remove them, will any players be so upset to quit over it? In both directions, the answer is no, so, why make the change? The only difference is this:

1) Keep the stats - a handful of players (paranoid alliance leaders and nobody else) are a little uncomfortable about some free data
2) Lose the stats - hundreds or thousands of players are sad and disappointed that CCP caved to the request of a few

Just pick the lesser of two evils...


Exactly this.

Yet, notice that you're not being asked your opinion about removing the nullsec regional stats, you're being informed on when and why the nullsec regional stats will be gone.

So kiss those nullsec regional stats good bye because that handful of paranoid people used the appropiate trigger words and dropped them in the appropiate ears before you even knew what was going on.

This is how EVE meta works, and CCP is happy to oblige.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-02-14 12:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Plantgenet
Well that's a nice set of graphs too bad about the regional breakdowns :(
Maybe we can vote for CSM members who are for the reintroduction of the regional graphs in the MER and run their campaign around this.
Ask them the hard questions about if they are for a unified MER or the coming fractured unattainable MER.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#33 - 2017-02-14 14:21:42 UTC
Quote:
This was a request by the CSM (Aryth).


Not in favor of proposed change, but CCP will do whats best for umm.. them(?).

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Grash Uriza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2017-02-15 07:23:41 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Having inconvenient facts rubbed in their faces on a regular basis through CCP reports makes that narrative harder to uphold.


Let's talk some inconvenient facts...

1) You've known about these reports. They've been around over a year now.
2) You didn't make a stink about them before...
3) The Jan MER report showed data you didn't want to others to known. (Having said that, Bravo on those Delve Numbers)
4) Now that we all know you have rock pounding hard-ons, The CSM Member of your alliance pushes and gets rid of the Regional MER.
5) And we know it was Aryth because his name is the only one in CSM Minutes. No one else is mentioned by name.

What your boy Aryth just did stinks like a bloated fedo that gorged on ozone and blew itself inside out.
Don't be a inside out Fedo.

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#35 - 2017-02-15 13:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Grash Uriza wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Having inconvenient facts rubbed in their faces on a regular basis through CCP reports makes that narrative harder to uphold.


Let's talk some inconvenient facts...

1) You've known about these reports. They've been around over a year now.
2) You didn't make a stink about them before...
3) The Jan MER report showed data you didn't want to others to known. (Having said that, Bravo on those Delve Numbers)
4) Now that we all know you have rock pounding hard-ons, The CSM Member of your alliance pushes and gets rid of the Regional MER.
5) And we know it was Aryth because his name is the only one in CSM Minutes. No one else is mentioned by name.

What your boy Aryth just did stinks like a bloated fedo that gorged on ozone and blew itself inside out.
Don't be a inside out Fedo.



Fascinating story. Do you know how I noticed what was going in Delve? I opened the in-game map and set some filters.

Reading the reports with actual hard numbers on them is a nice bonus, but the data doesn't just disappear if the regional reports aren't released. I still would like to read them since it's easier than playing around with the map filters, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking "hiding" the regional reports would hide the actual information.

Edit:

That said, if the regional reports are actually removed, I'll enter the race for CSM on a "Let's bring regional reports back"-platform. P
who1 eva
KEQ Industrial Complex
#36 - 2017-02-16 21:36:08 UTC
Availability of regional data in the MERs is part of what makes the Eve economy such a complex and interesting one to be involved with.

Please reconsider dropping what many people consider to be the most interesting part of the reports!
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2017-02-17 09:46:17 UTC
Regional data is interesting. But who does it hurt for it to be removed?
Only one person in this thread mentioned that he has business interest in this information.
Others just do not like having 'interesting information' removed.

On one hand some of people living in those regions are not comfortable with publicly available statistic about their business.
On other - people like to have this information, "it's interesting".

For some reason i feel that first group has more weight in this story. I'm i getting this wrong?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#38 - 2017-02-17 14:14:43 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Regional data is interesting. But who does it hurt for it to be removed?
Only one person in this thread mentioned that he has business interest in this information.
Others just do not like having 'interesting information' removed.

On one hand some of people living in those regions are not comfortable with publicly available statistic about their business.
On other - people like to have this information, "it's interesting".

For some reason i feel that first group has more weight in this story. I'm i getting this wrong?


Well of course lobbies have more weight on matters affecting them. As I said, they just dropped the right code words on the right ears and a decission was made to favor a tiny minority in disregard of the majority of players.

"Hey guys, this service we provided for your money has become a secret need-to-know-only inteligence because a couple guys asked it, so eff you".

Exactly as when CCP harmed everyone to please supercap pilots who wanted to stay hidden in friend lists. Instead of allowing players to hide their online status, CCP just hid it for everybody so now nobody knows when a friend is back... Typical CCP shoddiness and love for whatever exits the back end of a nullseccer.
Xandr Che Balilla
Excoriate Fascist Tyranny
#39 - 2017-02-21 16:13:23 UTC
Citizens,

Many of us remember when a single alliance nearly completely dominated our galaxy. Undisputed they reigned, until infighting finally broke their grasp! How can hegemony like this be positive for the collective?! CCP! how can this kind of imbalance be good for the game at large!

And present evidence ... that THEY wish to suppress, suggests an onslaught orders of magnitude beyond that which as come before is now in the making. The idle minds at the CSM ask US for a reason why they should resist, FOOLS! Publishing the MER in detail allows rivals a fighting chance to bring the hope of BALANCE to the universe and PREVENT the crushing tyranny of a single TWISTED oligarchy!!

If CCP is truly interested in removing the sanctity of invulnerable low sec and null sec stations, then game balance is even more vital. IMPOSE a simple yet easily reasonable rule on corporations: the bigger you are, the more we see. DEMAND TRANSPARENCY for each corporation that controls %5 or more of galactic wealth! Only then can the specter of massive wealth concentration be broken - EVE has won accolades for its substantially better than IRL wealth distribution (https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5b4j5l/wealth_distribution_in_eve_online), this ATTRACTS followers! And the MER can enable exactly this.

Greed, tyranny, and in groups, fascism ... these are the hideous failings of the infantile human psyche. Ugly warts on the face of humanity! They MUST be controlled! We should even promote SYSTEM LEVEL stats for those corps which have run amok! The more you control, the more transparent your operations. BRING BALANCE once again TO OUR UNIVERSE!!
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#40 - 2017-02-21 18:18:17 UTC
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