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Drake changes from CSM minutes.
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mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-01-20 22:10:10 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Vokradacka wrote:

give drake another PG boost +150 PG...... and it ill be "ok"...


3/10


If you think that was a troll, then you need to go fit t2 hams on a drake....
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#142 - 2012-01-20 22:11:10 UTC
mecubed wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
BEcause drake dont need RANGE buf ......... HMLs are 70km - ok , HAMs are 14kms , its OK because you still NEED scr+web... soo one bonus is waste = nerf....

You really have no idea what you're talking about, GTFO please. +Velocity helps at long range because the missiles then take less time to reach their target. Not all Drakes sit at 5km you know.
As for HAMs, the ability to lob those at 30km or so is pretty sweet actually.

Overall this is an awesome change and I can't wait to give it a try.


Ever fit T2 Hams on a drake? in order to get them on plus anything that you can call a tank, you need fitting mods or implants.
Hams are junk unless your target is webbed and scrammed.


Amazingly, the Drake can still sport 3 BCUs, DC, Scram, and web and still have a fantastic tank. Its a fantastic brawler.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-01-20 22:14:35 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
mecubed wrote:
Smabs wrote:
It really doesn't sound like that much of a nerf. More of a role change, really.

A velocity bonus drake would be doing about 550dps out to 105km. The 7.5km/s missiles would also have a much easier time landing hits on frigates. You'd also have HAMs hitting out past point range for ~650dps.

Essentially you'd have either a high dps ship with a good tank (it still would have 6 mids). Or an extremely solid 100km sniper with selectable damage types. The new drake would still be incredibly good in either of those roles.


Solid sniper at 100km with missiles....please save that for someone who will buy that ridiculous statement. The reason the cerb is one of the crappiest Hacs because that idea of sniping with missiles.


No, there are a plethora of other reasons that the Cerb is one of the crappiest HACs. Reasons that oddly enough don't affect the Drake.

-Liang


Ther cerb is crap all the way around, but a sniping missile ship? That suggestion oozes stupidity..I know your a forum nut and pride yourself in having some sort of come back for any post, but seriously if you dont think the main draw back of the cerb is the idea of a missile snipe ship, then i have a white hug me jacket and a rubber room for you.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#144 - 2012-01-20 22:19:48 UTC
mecubed wrote:

Ther cerb is crap all the way around, but a sniping missile ship? That suggestion oozes stupidity..I know your a forum nut and pride yourself in having some sort of come back for any post, but seriously if you dont think the main draw back of the cerb is the idea of a missile snipe ship, then i have a white hug me jacket and a rubber room for you.


Stop frothing at the mouth. The main draw back of the cerb is its mediocre mobility, ****** fittings, and lack of a drone bay. Notably those are things that the Drake doesn't have a problem with. Furthermore, the missile range bonus is simply a nice to have and lets you very realistically engage from outside sentry gun range or even attack and drive off Falcons and other ranged ships.

Honestly it sounds to me like you're trying to fly a Cerb in a 250 man gang and complaining that the primary is instapopped before your missiles get there. Roll Missiles - even at range - work fine in smaller gangs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#145 - 2012-01-20 22:32:12 UTC
It's too early to say anything. As it is the drake is hardly "better" in most roles other than "ok-dps@range" if it's not tankier.
And "ok-dps@range" is not enough - that's why the caracal lineup is not used much.

ROF bonus would be nice.
ROF + missile speed would be great, but it would kill anything with HML/HAM capabilities below the Drake's class, as it would be still tankier than HACs/Cruisers, and have more DPS, and same range etc etc etc...

It's hardly a "Great HAM Drake buff" however you see it tho - it is still out-classed in DPS by it's nemesis, the cane, (it will have full dmg selectivity tho, a bit plus, but so do Minmatar to a great extend, and you won't have the passive resist tank - aka, the neuts that would shut your Invul's off, will work against you faster, and you will have less EHP to boot with. - Wait - it's too early to say...

All I have to say - LOVE THE HARBINGER and the PROPHECY TOO!
Maybe it's not the Drake that it's too good...It's the other Tier 2 BCs, the caracal line, the NH etc that are weak...(lol).

Oh, and reading that they will make it "gankier" to match the Raven hull - oh, please...that made me laugh...
Only Torp-Raven is ganky. Cruise missiles are a joke (even T2 Furys), and HAMs are NOTHING like torps.

Make a glass, 800 DPS HAM cerb with range bonuses, or an equiv. Drake - even kin limited, with no range bonus - and then we talk again. This cowardice "massaging" won't change anything. Only will populate the forums with more whiny threads.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#146 - 2012-01-20 23:02:17 UTC
Quote:
Ahh you got smacked down by a drake and now you boohoo about it. How about getting a hair cut? You have no idea what you are rambling on about. There is nothing flawed new people to the game need something to survive in. You do realize there is more to this game than tackling and PVP correct since PVP pays **** in isk.

And the post starts with baseless accusations, thanks for letting me know in advance what an utter tool you are. If you'd bothered to read (or understand) my post, it was that the best place for newbies is in tackling. Of course there's more to the game, but that needs some SP investment.

Quote:
The fact that you got faceplanted at some time by some newb in an absolute NEWB ship is not our fault.

More baseless accusations rather than a valid point. Seems I was right about you being an idiot.

Quote:
WTF are you going to use ECM for in PVE? So every new person is suppose to be your slave ECM or Tackling bot. Yeah we get it.

And where exactly did I say anything about using ECM for PVE? What the other guy said was essentially that a newer Caldari player was useless in anything other than a Drake. I corrected them.

Quote:
So every new person is suppose to be your slave ECM or Tackling bot. Yeah we get it.

Oh look, throwing around "slave" and "bot" to make it sound like ewar and tackle roles are something to be looked down.
In short: they aren't.
In long: what exactly is wrong with newer players being ideal tacklers or ECM ship pilots?
Cyzlaki
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#147 - 2012-01-20 23:19:24 UTC
I love how these guys have never head of a cerb sniper and how effective it is. Smabs was right, you are all morons
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#148 - 2012-01-20 23:42:24 UTC
AstarothPrime wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
What do you think of the drake changes mentioned in the CSM meeting minutes.


"CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus."


YESS thats not a nerf - its a buff...

OK

I agree - u wont be able to solo WHs with it anymore or do afk L4 missions but - YESSSSSS you will be able to rat in EVERY nulsec space with it - distance tanking with HMLs or do fleet pew pew with HAMs on 40km distance wohooohoohooooohohohoho, looking forward to it - I mite just as well jump into it once again :)

I.


Which L4 do you think you would be unable to do with the NewDrake?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#149 - 2012-01-20 23:58:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Which L4 do you think you would be unable to do with the NewDrake?


I'd be really surprised if you can do *any* C3 anom solo with NewDrake.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#150 - 2012-01-21 08:03:25 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Which L4 do you think you would be unable to do with the NewDrake?


I'd be really surprised if you can do *any* C3 anom solo with NewDrake.

-Liang


I have no experience of C3s, but my question was specifically about Level 4 missions. Offhand I can't think of one that I couldn't do with NewDrake.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dig Ito
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-01-21 08:32:07 UTC
A Drake in it's present form, complete t2 fitted, can zip through level 4s..try it yourself....

The purpose of the recomended changes is to weed out the casual players, who pay for their time with cash, not plex.
Maybe CCPs finance department will wake up.....
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#152 - 2012-01-21 17:08:07 UTC
Titans will be dropped on the drake armies once again and there will be cries of terror spread throughout the forum as each one dies in a fire... Shocked
Ehn Roh
#153 - 2012-01-22 02:39:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ehn Roh
Lili Lu wrote:
Tsai Ashitaka wrote:
Quote:
CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus.


Yeah, because the Caracal and Raven are so regularly seen in PvP ops.

The drake may be a jack of all trades, but it is a master of none. If you're doing L4s in a drake, it's suboptimal. If you're doing small gang pvp in a drake, you're missing out on the dps and maneuverability of smaller, faster cruisers. If you're doing large scale fleet pvp in a drake, you're missing out on instantaneous damage and high alpha strikes.

The drake performs well in many roles, but there are ships that can perform vastly better in each one. Changing the bonuses to fall into line with two of the least used pvp ships will almost completely eliminate the Caldari lineup from pvp.

One of the biggest complaints about heavy missiles is its incredible damage projection. Why on earth would CCP propose increasing its range further?


The Naga has no resist bonus, yet it is getting some use in pvp.


That's because it's not a missile platform.

The only reason the Drake sees as much use as it does despite the missiles is the tank

Not saying that I support or dislike this change either way, however. I can think of some uses for the extra range.
Brutor Slavechild 1039248223
#154 - 2012-01-22 03:23:55 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
It's too early to say anything. As it is the drake is hardly "better" in most roles other than "ok-dps@range" if it's not tankier.
And "ok-dps@range" is not enough - that's why the caracal lineup is not used much.

ROF bonus would be nice.
ROF + missile speed would be great, but it would kill anything with HML/HAM capabilities below the Drake's class, as it would be still tankier than HACs/Cruisers, and have more DPS, and same range etc etc etc...

It's hardly a "Great HAM Drake buff" however you see it tho - it is still out-classed in DPS by it's nemesis, the cane, (it will have full dmg selectivity tho, a bit plus, but so do Minmatar to a great extend, and you won't have the passive resist tank - aka, the neuts that would shut your Invul's off, will work against you faster, and you will have less EHP to boot with. - Wait - it's too early to say...

All I have to say - LOVE THE HARBINGER and the PROPHECY TOO!
Maybe it's not the Drake that it's too good...It's the other Tier 2 BCs, the caracal line, the NH etc that are weak...(lol).

Oh, and reading that they will make it "gankier" to match the Raven hull - oh, please...that made me laugh...
Only Torp-Raven is ganky. Cruise missiles are a joke (even T2 Furys), and HAMs are NOTHING like torps.

Make a glass, 800 DPS HAM cerb with range bonuses, or an equiv. Drake - even kin limited, with no range bonus - and then we talk again. This cowardice "massaging" won't change anything. Only will populate the forums with more whiny threads.



Agree with this entirely. Too early to say what impact this will have on the drake-centric metagames, but I think it should scare caldari pilots all the same. The caracal, cerb, and nh deal with their own issues and missiles themselves have to battle against problems unique to the weapon system.

I hope ccp gives this some thought while they're mixing balance up a bit. I for one would like to see a greater variety of caldari ships to shoot at.
Braelyn
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-01-22 22:44:36 UTC
The changes sound good to me. It may actually give me some sort of incentive to use the ship. I mean, who doesn't like ham?
Noisrevbus
#156 - 2012-01-23 05:11:02 UTC
Shameless plug, since it kind of relate more to this thread than the one it was posted in.

Drake: background, fallacies, problems (lengthy, as always).
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#157 - 2012-01-23 07:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Liang Nuren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Which L4 do you think you would be unable to do with the NewDrake?


I'd be really surprised if you can do *any* C3 anom solo with NewDrake.

-Liang


You can't. And that's good to hear. You'll have a tough time doing a C2 solo without having to warp out.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
shal ri
Short Bus Window Licker
#158 - 2012-01-23 22:13:54 UTC
these changes to the drake are goin to great for the ship as a pvp boat. it will have a good balance between tank and gank. makes it more of a challenge for ships like the myrm to kill. as for the affect on the use of the ship, i dont think it will drop very much at all, in fact i think it will increase the use of the ship in pvp engagements. i saw a post in the tread about it being a newb friendly ship and had a real laugh at the guy saying it should stay as is just for the newbs.

there are so many roles a new player can play to fit into. tackle and ecm being the most useful. tackle put the player in the engagement to learn first hand wat it means to work in a group an important role. he/she can use the same frig to pve with doin lv 1 mish and so on, they can even join in the the older player to do some boring lv 4s killin frigs and gettin free isk with standing while training for a proper ship to do missions/pvp in.

limiting them to just a drake in a shame. wat do most ppl say to new players? train for a drake to mish and some pvp as its the easiest. guess theres not really a good chance of them branching out is there?
moving on from that, the range bonus the drake will get with missles will put hams to good use. as for the statements about it makin the cerb useless? well the cerb was always useless. its cost is high. its training long. its tank? oh god. even in small gang if u have it warp in at 70k missles take time to get there so thats an issuse with gettin the dps applied in time for a gank b4 support warps in.
in large engagements i can see it working well yes, but then theres the tank. cerb primey= dead cerb. to solo in the cerb in just like jumping off a bridge. the ability to hold range on a target is difficult to do with its **** cap. running the micro for very long in just not a good idea.

the drake is more cost effective and for the most part, does the same thing. even more so once the buff comes into play. though it will be limited to its max targeting range for sniping purposes.
this will also mean i will have to change the way i fight drakes in belts and gates in low sec, and make it easier to kill in high sec
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#159 - 2012-01-23 22:22:55 UTC
shal ri wrote:
makes it more of a challenge for ships like the myrm to kill


It is not a challenge to kill a Myrm with a Drake already - certainly if you have the time to bleed his cap boosters dry.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ehn Roh
#160 - 2012-01-24 02:09:48 UTC
After thinking about it some more, removing the resist bonus makes some (but not all) aspects of the tank more like the tank you would find anyways on the low SP fit that a number of people are saying they want to retain, while rewarding everyone with more DPS.

If they give the cruisers some love maybe we can get more moderate SP players back into cruisers.