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What's with the DPS difference between Missiles and Hybrids?

Author
Davos Skyworth
Confidently Incompetent
#1 - 2017-01-23 16:19:18 UTC
Hey guys,

I have decided more than a week ago that I'd like to train towards a Rattlesnake, using the Drake and then the Raven to get into missiles, then switching over to Drone skills. That's the plan anyways.
I've been flying ships like the Ferox and the Brutix Navy Issue to do ratting and missions, and those ships usually have very nice dps (~350 and 400+), albeit application of that damage can be spotty at times.
I've reached the point where I have twice the skill points in Missiles than I have in Gunnery, yet when I fit my Drake with similar gear as I did with my Ferox (mix of Meta 4 and Tech 2, some Deadspace crap sprinkled in), my DPS is nowhere near the previous levels. My current fit is not even pushing 250 DPS. Are missiles more skill-intensive, or am I missing something?

Here's the fit:
High:
6x Arbalest HML
1x Small Tractor Beam I

Med:
2x Large Shield Extender II
1x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
1x Pithum C-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
1x Shield Recharger II
1x 50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive

Low:
2x Ballistic Control System II
2x Type-D Restrained Shield Power Relay

Rigs:
3x Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Drones:
5x Hornet I

The Ferox fit I was using was more geared towards buffer than regen, but the amount of damage mods were about the same, and I didn't use damage rigs.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#2 - 2017-01-23 18:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
It's probably because the HML have been batnerfed numerous times, this and the drake himself. He got a range bonus recently but that's it, it's still not a great ship, you can try for PVE with HAM, the range bonus could help projecting against a room of npcs.

with my 6.3M skill points in missile, with heavy to tech 2, with the same fit as you with tech 1 kinetic missiles I have 249 dps, and that's without the projection issue on small target (including cruiser).

Note that with tech 2 launchers and tech 2 missiles (fury scourge) I have around 360 dps.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#3 - 2017-01-23 18:21:45 UTC
I would recommend getting rid of the shield repair - there are better choices for that midslot. Consider either a target painter or a missile guidance computer - the later can be scripted for precision or range.

Painting your targets will improve the damage your missiles (and drones) inflict on small targets and will make the rats less likely to attack your drones.

The guidance computer with precision script will also improve damage application to smaller targets. There are no tracking issues with missiles - they will always hit if the target is in range.

For missions, you may want to replace the MWD with an afterburner. There should be no problem running it continuously to keep your ship moving at high speed throughout the mission. Speed and the lower signature should reduce incoming damage to the point where a Drake has little difficulty tanking a level 3 mission - tank is what it does best.

Play with different combinations for your low slots - perhaps 3 ballistic controls and a DCU - see how they work.

If you want more DPS, use heavy assault missiles. You won't get the same range but you can use a range script in the missile guidance computer to help with that. Field test the changes in a lower level mission to see how they work for you. Some people enjoy brawling with high dps, short range weapons - others prefer kiting with lower dps long range weapons.

Rattlesnake is different. With Sentry drones and cruise missiles you'll want a micro jump drive and engage from 100Km or more depending on your drone control range. You'll definitely want a target painter if you want the cruise missiles to do any damage to smaller ships.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#4 - 2017-01-24 01:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Well, as you're only a couple of weeks old, don't expect your Drake to put out any real DPS. If you're getting that DPS with HMLs, maybe you better wait, and train up your skills.

For your fit: (to repeat some of what has already been said)

drop the MWD, go with an AB
drop the shield recharger, and use a TP
drop one of the SPRs and add in an extra BCU II

Other than that the rest of the fit is not too bad.

Keep training the missile skills, and the skills supporting missiles. Train up your shield skills, and then your drone skills. You also have to make sure your electronics, mechanical, capacitor, etc, skills are also up.

It's a process. A little here a little there.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#5 - 2017-01-24 04:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
Ion Kirst wrote:
Well, as you're only a couple of weeks old, don't expect your Drake to put out any real DPS. If you're getting that DPS with HMLs, maybe you better wait, and train up your skills.

-Kirst


The issue is that HMLs are just pretty bad in general, they can be OK on some ships but they are often ships with huge bonuses (Tengu, Nighthawk can both get ~600 dps, but get way more with HAM)

I did a bit of research for a post yesterday

All of these numbers are T2 with faction short range ammo unless stated. All LVL5s , no ship bonus and damage per module.

HML - 27.1DPS
Heavy Beam - 43.5 (26.4 with Aurora)
250mm Railgun - 43.4 DPS (25.2 with Spike)
720mm Arty - 32.2 (18.7 with Tremor)

For reference HAM is 35.9 DPS with better application.

So for long range weapons it has the lowest DPS by a fair amount and even using long range Ammo it only beats Arties while at the same time not being able to provide the same Alpha factor that Arties do (720MM have almost double the Alpha and Beams/250mm have about 10-20% less than HML).

Also HML have terrible application so the case is worst than EFT/PYFA show.
Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries
#6 - 2017-01-24 07:48:23 UTC
PvP or PvE?

For PvE missiles have several advantages when compared to they counterparts:
- longer range
- ability to select the damage type that you want;
- always hit (damage can be reduced, but if you are in range, you hit).

So you should consider if your theoretical DPS is even close to the DPS you deliver on target.
How many misses with your blaster/rails?
At what range you can apply them?
What is the effect of the target resists?

For PvP they have a serious drawback: damage is not instantaneous.
it isn't the only one, bout one of the most important.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#7 - 2017-01-24 13:59:41 UTC
As people said, HML got nerfed hard, because at one point it was 'too good', especially for certain ships. It could do very consistent damage to all sorts of things from 0km to exreme ranges, without any loss in accuracy (due to tracking/etc) or damage (due to fall off etc).

Personally I do feel that HML nerf was too heavy handed, as many CCP nerfs are, but I have to concede that at some point they were maybe too good. :p

Having said that, on Tengu, HMLs still work pretty good and you can easily get 600+ DPS with decent skills, and with blings & implants you are looking at close to 700 DPS from 0km to 100km ish, all the while sporting a monster tank and insane cap regeneration (especially after the cap battery buff).

Sure, you'd get more DPS out of HAMs, both raw numbers and in applications, but there are certain cases in PVE (such as sites that involve heavy webbing/sleeper sites with long distance spawns+heavy webs/neuts/etc) where HML just works better than HAMs.

tl;dr - the biggest strength of HML is its range and the fact that damage does not depend on range (i.e. you can do same damage to a target that's 1km away as a target that is at the maximum end of your range). In scenarios where such ranges are beneficial HMLs work very well.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#8 - 2017-01-25 01:50:48 UTC
The difference in damage with two very different weapon system is what put people off of some choices.

Railguns got a nice buff not too long ago and your experience with blasters has taught you that they deal a lot of damage - at close range.

Now the real difference between missiles and turrets is that turret damage applies or not whenever you press fire and every turret cycle that follows.

Missiles are different in that way that they need to be launched first, accelerate and go on their way to either hit or not the target.

During that time the missiles are "in the air", they do zero damage until they hit or not.

If you look of fitting tools like EFT or Pfya, missile dps always seems so much lower than turret damage and that is because you can launch several volleys of them and only when they hit they do damage.

For my favorite missiles, the heavy missiles, you will fire a volley that may do a combined damage of let's say 2000hp but never actually reach 2000hp unless you shoot a structure with zero resistance.

The damage displayed to you will always be lower than it shows on your grouped launchers, except you hit the structure layer of battleship rats.

As an example, let's assume you shoot scourge heavy missiles a Pith Conquistador (Gurista, looks like a Raven) and your Drake's grouped launchers say they do 2000hp kinetic damage up to 63km (used to be 80).

Let's also assume that the heavy missile launchers have a cycle time of 5 seconds (it's 6.7 but for better math I need a better value) and have a speed of 2000m/s (it's a little more but it is just an example)

That Pith Conquistador is 62km away and you shoot your first salvo of 6 missiles away and your launchers cycle and you still haven't gotten an impact message.
Your launchers fire salvo number 2 and by then you have now 2 salvos "in the air" where still no damage is done.

In this example you will have 6 salvos "in the air" before any damage will be done and then you see the beloved blue-ish impact message displayed.
753 damage, 753 damage, 764 damage and so on. You can see on your display that the Conquistator is going down.

When you shoot a turret it more like 330 damage, 456 damage, 700 (wrecking), 345 damage and so on every time your turrets complete one cycle.

The fitting tools account for that "downtime" of damage.

One last thing, turret range is always the same (unless ewar is in play) whether you fly or stand still. Missiles range varies by movement and can be decreased by flying away and increased by getting closer.

I might need to seriously poke someone to get my heavy missiles fixed.

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This is the law of ship progression!

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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#9 - 2017-01-25 14:51:12 UTC
The fitting tools account for that "downtime" of damage.


No they dont.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2017-01-26 09:00:03 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The fitting tools account for that "downtime" of damage.


No they dont.


Fitting tools assume you sit at 0km from your target too or approach it at full speed at 0 transversal.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#11 - 2017-01-26 13:07:11 UTC
No, fitting tools assume nothing, all they give you in the dps number is volley/rof.

If you want to look at actual damage (or applied dps) there are graphs both in eft and pyfa where you can have any transversal or any range vs any sized target moving at any speed.

The point is that there is no accounting for "downtime" of damage.
Edwin Bauer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-01-26 14:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Edwin Bauer
I think hybrids are supposed, by design, to be the highest DPS guns compared to equivalents from the other races. That certainly is true for blasters.

Edit:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
No, fitting tools assume nothing, all they give you in the dps number is volley/rof.

If you want to look at actual damage (or applied dps) there are graphs both in eft and pyfa where you can have any transversal or any range vs any sized target moving at any speed.

The point is that there is no accounting for "downtime" of damage.


Also the 'downtime' has no actual impact on dps. It basically tells you how much it will take for your first volley to reach it's target and is pretty meaningless after that.
Davos Skyworth
Confidently Incompetent
#13 - 2017-01-26 23:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Davos Skyworth
Thanks for all the input guys. Moved on to a cruise Raven to do some L4s, missiles just seem to be a different beast entirely. The Drake just seems to be a brick with Mentos Coca Cola launchers.