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Drake changes from CSM minutes.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#121 - 2012-01-20 13:20:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
I think most of the complaints are from people who use drakes for lvl 4 missions.
But imo, it's a BC and shouldn't do lvl 4 missions at all, and the new RoF bonus would make it a MUCH better lvl 3 missioner due to increased dps and selectable damage types.
…and to be fair, it will still be able to do L4s just fine — it'll just tank a bit worse than the Myrm, that's all (until/unless they adjust its tank as well).


On the other hand, its "DPS tank" will be significantly improved. And it's range tank. NewDrake will actually be much more effective against EM rats because it'll be able to use Thunderbolts at full efficiency instead of taking a 20% DPS hit for using non-Kinetic, and it'll be able to use them far outside the effective range of the Sansha/Blood lasers anyway. Put a 10MN AB/2x LSE/ Invuln II/2x Photon II in the mids, rejoice in your 33% DPS boost, and you'll be just fine doing Pirate Invasion or Sansha Blockade or whatever.

God forbid that missioners actually have to spend a few minutes per mission actually piloting their damb ship in return for a whopping ISK/hr boost. Roll

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#122 - 2012-01-20 14:25:14 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Quote:
You really don't know much about missiles, do you?


In that they would be able to hit >5km/s ceptors instead of not being able to at all.

A purely academic benefit, as they'd still do virtually no damage on impact.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#123 - 2012-01-20 14:42:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
On the other hand, its "DPS tank" will be significantly improved. And it's range tank. NewDrake will actually be much more effective against EM rats because it'll be able to use Thunderbolts at full efficiency instead of taking a 20% DPS hit for using non-Kinetic, and it'll be able to use them far outside the effective range of the Sansha/Blood lasers anyway. Put a 10MN AB/2x LSE/ Invuln II/2x Photon II in the mids, rejoice in your 33% DPS boost, and you'll be just fine doing Pirate Invasion or Sansha Blockade or whatever.

God forbid that missioners actually have to spend a few minutes per mission actually piloting their damb ship in return for a whopping ISK/hr boost. Roll
Pretty much.

Active-Drake was a hell of a lot better than passive-Drake before for missions, and if this change makes people switch over to those kinds of fits, they'll discover the joys of not sitting still. Hell, if you dump the extenders and go for a shield-booster fit (because why not — you're stuffing it full with cap-drawing equipment anyway, so you might as well go all the way), you'll notice that it's actually small enough a ship to speed-tank NPC battleships, even before you even consider trying to outrange them. It seems people have gotten so used to it being a 4-500m sigres turtle that those aspects of the ship have gone almost completely unnoticed.

The more I think about it, the more obvious the buff status of the proposed change becomes. Big smile
AstarothPrime
Pecunia Infinita
#124 - 2012-01-20 15:26:28 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
What do you think of the drake changes mentioned in the CSM meeting minutes.


"CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinetic damage bonus instead gain a rate of fire and a missile velocity bonus."


YESS thats not a nerf - its a buff...

OK

I agree - u wont be able to solo WHs with it anymore or do afk L4 missions but - YESSSSSS you will be able to rat in EVERY nulsec space with it - distance tanking with HMLs or do fleet pew pew with HAMs on 40km distance wohooohoohooooohohohoho, looking forward to it - I mite just as well jump into it once again :)

I.
Vokradacka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2012-01-20 17:11:34 UTC
its nerf seriously....why?
BEcause drake dont need RANGE buf ......... HMLs are 70km - ok , HAMs are 14kms , its OK because you still NEED scr+web... soo one bonus is waste = nerf....

give drake another PG boost +150 PG...... and it ill be "ok"...
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#126 - 2012-01-20 17:27:47 UTC
Quote:
BEcause drake dont need RANGE buf ......... HMLs are 70km - ok , HAMs are 14kms , its OK because you still NEED scr+web... soo one bonus is waste = nerf....

You really have no idea what you're talking about, GTFO please. +Velocity helps at long range because the missiles then take less time to reach their target. Not all Drakes sit at 5km you know.
As for HAMs, the ability to lob those at 30km or so is pretty sweet actually.

Overall this is an awesome change and I can't wait to give it a try.
Vokradacka
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2012-01-20 17:54:13 UTC
yeaa... i never fly a single drake.... and you? yes , it maybe help fleet HAM drake..... Hmm , no its a lie, nobody flew a a fleet HAM drake...soo?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#128 - 2012-01-20 18:00:35 UTC
Vokradacka wrote:
yeaa... i never fly a single drake.... and you? yes , it maybe help fleet HAM drake..... Hmm , no its a lie, nobody flew a a fleet HAM drake...soo?

Heh, more clueless with every post. Not everyone flies Drakes in 200man gangs, you know. Not to mention the change to a RoF bonus means it can use damage types other than kinetic much more effectively, a buff to both HAMs and HMLs there.

Generally speaking though, a tank nerf to the Drake was needed. Now it's on par with the other BCs and actually better offensively.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#129 - 2012-01-20 18:27:35 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

Quote:
in Eve you need an niche and the drake is it for 3 month old players

What a load of crap. "Newbie ship" is not a role. You seem to think that the Drake immediately stops being useful once the pilot gains a few SP - no, actually, it's quite the opposite. In the hands of someone with higher SP the Drake goes from "good" to "hilariously OP".


As with all things, there's a curve for how much you utility you can squeeze out of a ship with a certain amount of SP. The Drake and Cane have a very high return up front but as you get more SP the advantages get much smaller. For instance, the easy fittings for the Drake and Cane rapidly lose their initial utility as you train fitting skills to 5. The initially high damage and damage projection loses its luster as you gain access to smaller, faster, and more far reaching ships like the Muninn and Zealot.

That's not to say that it isn't powerful and perhaps even OP - and I've argued such before. Historically I've used the Drake for everything from a nano ship with great damage projection to a tank and spank brawler to a sentry tanking gate camper. With the introduction of Tier 3 BCs my historic fondness of the nano Drake is rapidly fading, which leaves me looking to the tank and spank applications and sentry tanking - two things that it does well.

Thus I'd say that from my perspective (all subcaps reasonably trained, all T2 weapons, most T2 ship skills at 5) the Drake is simply one more ship in a toolbox. Perhaps its too strong, but its not so strong that I feel compelled to use it in my quest to dominate the battlefield. And nor is it so strong that I hesitate to engage them.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#130 - 2012-01-20 18:30:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
On the other hand, its "DPS tank" will be significantly improved. And it's range tank. NewDrake will actually be much more effective against EM rats because it'll be able to use Thunderbolts at full efficiency instead of taking a 20% DPS hit for using non-Kinetic, and it'll be able to use them far outside the effective range of the Sansha/Blood lasers anyway. Put a 10MN AB/2x LSE/ Invuln II/2x Photon II in the mids, rejoice in your 33% DPS boost, and you'll be just fine doing Pirate Invasion or Sansha Blockade or whatever.

God forbid that missioners actually have to spend a few minutes per mission actually piloting their damb ship in return for a whopping ISK/hr boost. Roll
Pretty much.

Active-Drake was a hell of a lot better than passive-Drake before for missions, and if this change makes people switch over to those kinds of fits, they'll discover the joys of not sitting still. Hell, if you dump the extenders and go for a shield-booster fit (because why not — you're stuffing it full with cap-drawing equipment anyway, so you might as well go all the way), you'll notice that it's actually small enough a ship to speed-tank NPC battleships, even before you even consider trying to outrange them. It seems people have gotten so used to it being a 4-500m sigres turtle that those aspects of the ship have gone almost completely unnoticed.

The more I think about it, the more obvious the buff status of the proposed change becomes. Big smile


People may ignore that kind of fit, but I assure you it isn't for lack of preaching about the fitting.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#131 - 2012-01-20 19:36:27 UTC
Vokradacka wrote:

give drake another PG boost +150 PG...... and it ill be "ok"...


3/10
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-01-20 19:36:47 UTC
I think you should leave the Drake as is.

You seem to think that it needs a nerf... As if Caldari has anything else worth flying, you're trying to take away my HAM Drake from me? But I'm only going to fly it more, with these changes :-)

Do whatever you want. But the Nighthawk is not going to get any more used due to these changes. Its just not worth the ISK.

If you want to change anything, please dear god nerf the terrible thing that is ECM drones. So that I don't get almost perm jammed in a Battleship from EC300s. So that Solo PvP can becomes a reality and fun for so much more pilots... So that you even think of engaging 2 Canes with 300s, or a silly Harb with 600s... Which atm is just a big freakin' "meh whats the point".

Leave my Drakes alone!

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2012-01-20 19:38:49 UTC
use smartbombs vs ecm drones , oh wait you dont want to loose dps ... kinda stupid thing as you say you are jammed a lot by those , i quess 7 turret (not jammed) does more dps than 8 turret jammed , but it is your call
Aldap
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-01-20 19:48:18 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
use smartbombs vs ecm drones , oh wait you dont want to loose dps ... kinda stupid thing as you say you are jammed a lot by those , i quess 7 turret (not jammed) does more dps than 8 turret jammed , but it is your call


I'm talking about making solo PvP fun, if you engage superior numbers you need your full DPS capabilities. The battleship was an example, but of course I'm talking about BCs, and Drakes since this is what this thread's suppose to be about. Fact is EC300s jam way too often, and the jam cycles are way too long. IMO 300s should be something of a gamble for whoever choses to use them, something like "will I get my 2 jam cycles or won't I?", while atm its not even a question. The sad thing about it, is that if indeed the situation is a solo fight on a gate, the ECM drones just make the opponent deagress and leave the fight... These drones just take away from the general enjoyment of small scale PvP, that is my opinion.

I'm not saying ECM drones are bad. I'm just saying... Leave my Drakes alone! :-) And if you feel the need to nerf something, take it out on the ECM drones.

An interesting article about Solo PvP: http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-solo
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-01-20 19:52:32 UTC
Aldap wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
use smartbombs vs ecm drones , oh wait you dont want to loose dps ... kinda stupid thing as you say you are jammed a lot by those , i quess 7 turret (not jammed) does more dps than 8 turret jammed , but it is your call


I'm talking about making solo PvP fun, if you engage superior numbers you need your full DPS capabilities. The battleship was an example, but of course I'm talking about BCs, and Drakes since this is what this thread's suppose to be about. Fact is EC300s jam way too often, and the jam cycles are way too long. IMO 300s should be something of a gamble for whoever choses to use them, something like "will I get my 2 jam cycles or won't I?", while atm its not even a question. The sad thing about it, is that if indeed the situation is a solo fight on a gate, the ECM drones just make the opponent deagress and leave the fight... These drones just take away from the general enjoyment of small scale PvP, that is my opinion.

I'm not saying ECM drones are bad. I'm just saying... Leave my Drakes alone! :-) And if you feel the need to nerf something, take it out on the ECM drones.

no the problem is they decided to fix overused ships , and only want to nerf/fix drake , and let other overused(winmatar) ships alone

btw the cerb was already underused ,why the hell they want to make a bc to completly remove it from game :(
more dps more tank same range as you shouldnt be farther than 120km anyway ,thx csm total fail
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#136 - 2012-01-20 20:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aldap wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
use smartbombs vs ecm drones , oh wait you dont want to loose dps ... kinda stupid thing as you say you are jammed a lot by those , i quess 7 turret (not jammed) does more dps than 8 turret jammed , but it is your call


I'm talking about making solo PvP fun, if you engage superior numbers you need your full DPS capabilities. The battleship was an example, but of course I'm talking about BCs, and Drakes since this is what this thread's suppose to be about. Fact is EC300s jam way too often, and the jam cycles are way too long. IMO 300s should be something of a gamble for whoever choses to use them, something like "will I get my 2 jam cycles or won't I?", while atm its not even a question. The sad thing about it, is that if indeed the situation is a solo fight on a gate, the ECM drones just make the opponent deagress and leave the fight... These drones just take away from the general enjoyment of small scale PvP, that is my opinion.

I'm not saying ECM drones are bad. I'm just saying... Leave my Drakes alone! :-) And if you feel the need to nerf something, take it out on the ECM drones.


A few comments:
- ECM mechanics (including ECM drones) undoubtedly need adjustment, but that's a wholly different discussion to the Drake. Bringing up ECM drones when discussing the Drake is merely muddying the water around the Drake. The two are not related.
- I've repeatedly seen Club Bear decline to engage me late at night. Last night you guys wouldn't even engage 2 Thorax + (maybe blackbird) vs a solo Ranis on a gate. When I brought Hahbs in (all the way from Amamake!) so that it was 2 Ranis (us) vs 2 Thorax+[Blackbird] (Syss7 and friends) you guys ran for high sec. Do you guys have standing orders to avoid Heretic Army in the Aus TZ?

-Liang

Ed: The blackbird may or may not have been with you guys. Even at 2 Thorax vs 2 Ranis I'd have expected you guys to fight and not ask me to tank 2 thorax + sentry guns with my Ranis.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Spineker
#137 - 2012-01-20 21:40:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
What most people don't realize including CCP obviously the Drake gives new players an IN to PVE and PVP. Don't whack the drake because of blob fleets it is dumb. New players can have relative fun with a drake, they will spend half a year to do better. Drake is a great entry level ship and even odds against players like me with 50+ million SP. If you make it obsolete like the Eagle and Cerb (which takes HUGE amounts of training) you will bar new players from being capable and wanted.

This is a flawed argument in several ways.
1. The fact that the Drake is good with such ridiculously low skills compared to the other BCs is actually a major red flag of an overpowered ship, not a good thing.
2. Bar new players from being capable and wanted? What game are you playing? Tacklers are always useful, and ECM isn't exactly hard to train for. There, I just gave you two roles new players can easily fill, and neither of those take "half a year" to train for.
3. The fact it happens to be a (too much so) newbie friendly ship right now comes second to the fact that the Drake is out of balance, and needs to be brought back in line. Sure it might suck for them for a little while, but it'll be very good for the game on the whole.
4. It's actually the uses higher SP players are putting it to that's far more of a problem than what some newbie does.



Ahh you got smacked down by a drake and now you boohoo about it. How about getting a hair cut? You have no idea what you are rambling on about. There is nothing flawed new people to the game need something to survive in. You do realize there is more to this game than tackling and PVP correct since PVP pays **** in isk.

The fact that you got faceplanted at some time by some newb in an absolute NEWB ship is not our fault. WTF are you going to use ECM for in PVE? So every new person is suppose to be your slave ECM or Tackling bot. Yeah we get it.


Hope it drives the price to rock bottom cheap and all of you teary eyed nerf bots get swarmed by them. That would be justice.

When are we nerfing Projectile Weapons, Lazers and Minny ships? Soon I hope. Talk about something actually over powered and not hyped by lemmings.
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-01-20 22:02:44 UTC
Smabs wrote:
It really doesn't sound like that much of a nerf. More of a role change, really.

A velocity bonus drake would be doing about 550dps out to 105km. The 7.5km/s missiles would also have a much easier time landing hits on frigates. You'd also have HAMs hitting out past point range for ~650dps.

Essentially you'd have either a high dps ship with a good tank (it still would have 6 mids). Or an extremely solid 100km sniper with selectable damage types. The new drake would still be incredibly good in either of those roles.


Solid sniper at 100km with missiles....please save that for someone who will buy that ridiculous statement. The reason the cerb is one of the crappiest Hacs because that idea of sniping with missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#139 - 2012-01-20 22:07:26 UTC
mecubed wrote:
Smabs wrote:
It really doesn't sound like that much of a nerf. More of a role change, really.

A velocity bonus drake would be doing about 550dps out to 105km. The 7.5km/s missiles would also have a much easier time landing hits on frigates. You'd also have HAMs hitting out past point range for ~650dps.

Essentially you'd have either a high dps ship with a good tank (it still would have 6 mids). Or an extremely solid 100km sniper with selectable damage types. The new drake would still be incredibly good in either of those roles.


Solid sniper at 100km with missiles....please save that for someone who will buy that ridiculous statement. The reason the cerb is one of the crappiest Hacs because that idea of sniping with missiles.


No, there are a plethora of other reasons that the Cerb is one of the crappiest HACs. Reasons that oddly enough don't affect the Drake.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
mecubed
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-01-20 22:08:41 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
BEcause drake dont need RANGE buf ......... HMLs are 70km - ok , HAMs are 14kms , its OK because you still NEED scr+web... soo one bonus is waste = nerf....

You really have no idea what you're talking about, GTFO please. +Velocity helps at long range because the missiles then take less time to reach their target. Not all Drakes sit at 5km you know.
As for HAMs, the ability to lob those at 30km or so is pretty sweet actually.

Overall this is an awesome change and I can't wait to give it a try.


Ever fit T2 Hams on a drake? in order to get them on plus anything that you can call a tank, you need fitting mods or implants.
Hams are junk unless your target is webbed and scrammed.