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Cynos - It's time to talk about it.

Author
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#1 - 2017-01-24 16:55:44 UTC
I know this has been discussed ad nauseam but I strongly believe that now is the right time to finally have a real debate about this issue.

The game has changed a lot throughout the years and many mechanics have been reworked during these 14 years.

Older players may remember how stupidly overpowered were Nosferatus before they got nerfed. They used to be just like Neutralizers, except the entire amount of energy disrupted was drained without any diminishing returns by your ship.

Or they may remember when ECM was way more stupid than it is now.
You could permajam somebody by using a SINGLE Multispec... on any ship.
In facts it wasn't so uncommon to fit hybrid tank with multispecs on ships like Ravens or shoving the extra multispec on your gallente extra utility medium.

By now you're probably thinking, what the hell do dinosaur-era Nosferatus and ECM have to do with Cynos ?

Those mechanics were broken, they disrupted gameplay by forcing the players, in a way or another, to exploit those mechanics.
Most of these ridiculously mechanics are now gone, or better they have been changed into specific roles.

I believe that the term Role is what is missing in the Cyno-bullshit puzzle.

When I see a Bhaalgorn on scan, I know I'm gonna get neuted to infinity.
When I see a Vindicator I know I'll probably have to deal with 1.3k+ dps.
When I see(?) a Falcon I know I should logoff and go play something else until he's gone.

Well the point is that I can make choices based on the roles played by the ships. Obviously in Eve it's not always the case, maybe some guy has no neuts on his bhaalgorn or he's packing lasers on his Vindi but these are exceptions which are irrelevant right now.

Can you tell if someone has a cyno on his ship ? (You'll probably laugh and say, yeah everybody has a Cyno nowadays)

But no, seriously. Can you ? The game doesn't provide you with the basic intel so that you can make a pondered decision.

Sure through the years some ships have been unofficially elected as Cyno ships, it's more likely you're getting hotdropped from a Phobos than a Rupture for sure. But why does it have to be a gamble everytime ?

Is it a gamble when you're fighting a Bhaalgorn or a Falcon or a Vindi? No, because you can imagine what's going to happen. (You're getting hotdropped, AH!)

Jokes asides, I strongly believe we finally need a role ship for Cynos. Now more than ever as capitals are very common, as there are more newbros and most importantly to keep the subcap pvp healthy, which is the core of this game.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-01-24 17:34:29 UTC
For a start this has been discussed, seriously and as you yourself point out, ad nauseam. All of those discussions have either failed to reach a meaningful conclusion, generally due to trolling, yelling, or a failure by parties on either side to reach any kind of consensus or they've come down pretty hard on the side of "leave things as they are, thanks".

Now, as to your specific points.

First off, they have tweaked Cynos. Jump Fatigue was a *major* change to how Cynos function and severely limited power projection in the game.

Clearly you feel this isn't enough.

Nothing guarantees that you're going to get hot dropped though. Your post makes it sound like literally everyone has a cyno fitted, which just isn't the case at all in practice. On top of that the more limited range means that if you're familiar with the area you're roaming through you can often make quite educated guesses about who will or won't have a cyno.

The other thing here is that your complain seems to hinge around a desire to want to consent to PvPing a cyno ship, when in fact everything else you're likely to run into probably doesn't want you to kill them, especially if they're solo (the normal state for a cyno ship) and you're in a group. What the cyno allows is for them to turn the tables on you, something you seem to dislike.

If you want a fair fight then may I suggest arranging things before hand? There are actually quite a few groups who are more than willing to engage in formal or informal group fights on pre-arranged terms. Eve Uni comes to mind for one, bloodthirsty pack of newbies that they are.
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#3 - 2017-01-24 17:52:52 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Your post makes it sound like literally everyone has a cyno fitted, which just isn't the case at all in practice.


I over-exagerated but as I stated, as capitals are far more common than they were in the past the hotdropping got more frequent too.

As for the "educated guess" matter, I don't think you should guess, at all. You should guess what capitals may they bring, how many.

Why everything in this game has a specific role while cynos don't ? There's literally no reason why one of the most powerful weapons (or mechanics however you want to define it) can be used by a noob ship.

Cynos need to fall under a new, well thought and modern role fit for current day eve.

I never said I want fair fights. Matter of facts I solo a lot, fair is not what I want.

But my point is not that eve needs to be fair, my point is that Cynos, like all of the previous broken mechanics need to be reworked.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#4 - 2017-01-24 17:59:41 UTC
I have a simple solution, let the cyno field generator use 5000 liquid ozone instead of 1 for all ships but force recons.

Force recons get a 99% role bonus and cynos are fixed.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2017-01-24 18:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
what was wrong with literaly any of the other threads?


besides cynos are fine they are easy to see coming and there are plenty of ways not to deal with them at all if you don't want.


i mean you talk about being able to tell by what type of ship this is literally what you can do now there are some ships that are far more common to be cynos than others hell you can normally even tell what type of cyno
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2017-01-24 18:27:05 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I have a simple solution, let the cyno field generator use 5000 liquid ozone instead of 1 for all ships but force recons.

Force recons get a 99% role bonus and cynos are fixed.


Here's an idea if you think that cynos use 1 unit:

Learn how the mechanics work before you post.


Now, OP, what kind of ship? Are you one of those people who say every time you move a jump freighter you need to sacrifice a recon, or would you deign to allow a T1 hull to fit a cyno?

And why do you think that your taking of the bait is not an intended mechanic? Why should your elite solo PVP ship be guaranteed to kill my ratting boat if I took the precaution of fitting a cyno and having some guys around to drop on you?

Should my carrier be able to cyno in it's friends? What about my rorqual, my blops or my rattlesnake?

Why should cynos only be a tool for a roaming gang, and not be available to a defender?
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#7 - 2017-01-24 18:49:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


And why do you think that your taking of the bait is not an intended mechanic? Why should your elite solo PVP ship be guaranteed to kill my ratting boat if I took the precaution of fitting a cyno and having some guys around to drop on you?



Because that's not how the rest of game works.

You're ratting, it means that if I come in and I catch you off guard you die OR you bring in your cyno-roled ship to save your ass. Just like you could bring a Falcon to ECM me or whatever.

Ship have roles, some roles are weak against other roles and they all balance out the bigger the numbers.

Again, you missed the point.

Cynos are a powerful module,mechanic, weapon call it as you please. It's ridiculous it's not a specific role like ECM or Neuts or MFJD and so fort.

As for the bait matter, you can still bait, it's just gonna take more time to undock and warp the cyno ship or warp it from an offscan location.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-01-24 19:10:27 UTC
so you just want to start hunting ratters with 0 risk. i get it now
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#9 - 2017-01-24 19:18:58 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so you just want to start hunting ratters with 0 risk. i get it now


I honestly don't know if this is a troll attempt or you're serious.

In case you are, the ratter can fit a point and call in friends the same, nothing changes and the risk remains.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2017-01-24 19:38:23 UTC
A ratter with a cyno and gang in range is not caught off guard. In fact they are probably licking their lips when you enter local. Thats why you die to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't like cyno's much either, but it does seem like you just want to be able to know which ratters have cyno's and which ones you can 1v1 and stroke your e-peen. If the crux of your arguments is 'poor solo players', don't expect sympathy. This isn't a solo game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-01-24 19:46:18 UTC
Gungnir Winder wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


And why do you think that your taking of the bait is not an intended mechanic? Why should your elite solo PVP ship be guaranteed to kill my ratting boat if I took the precaution of fitting a cyno and having some guys around to drop on you?



Because that's not how the rest of game works.

You're ratting, it means that if I come in and I catch you off guard you die OR you bring in your cyno-roled ship to save your ass. Just like you could bring a Falcon to ECM me or whatever.

Ship have roles, some roles are weak against other roles and they all balance out the bigger the numbers.

Again, you missed the point.

Cynos are a powerful module,mechanic, weapon call it as you please. It's ridiculous it's not a specific role like ECM or Neuts or MFJD and so fort.

As for the bait matter, you can still bait, it's just gonna take more time to undock and warp the cyno ship or warp it from an offscan location.


No, that is exactly how the rest of the game works. It's called 'fitting a counter', 'being prepared', 'taking precautions', you know, the exact kind of thing everyone should be doing if they want to not die.

if I am ratting and I took the trouble to fit a cyno and have a gang in range, then I am pretty clearly ready for you to come at me. Why, exactly, do you think that this is a bad thing?

Why do you get to bring in your elite solo pvp boat on my ratter, and force me to warp in another ship entirely to counter you?

ECM, neuts, tackle, disruptors, none of these are locked to specific hulls. I don't need to bring in a falcon to jam you, why should I need to bring in a cyno ship (I assume from your posts that you don't think they should be cloaky or have any kind of a tank) to drop the gang waiting just for you?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2017-01-24 19:47:03 UTC
Gungnir Winder wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so you just want to start hunting ratters with 0 risk. i get it now


I honestly don't know if this is a troll attempt or you're serious.

In case you are, the ratter can fit a point and call in friends the same, nothing changes and the risk remains.



there are pleanty of ships that you can use to point and kill them that will be well out of range of there point and you know it.


learn the game and you can figure out who has a cyno fit and who doesn't. they fly different and its not hard to tell. there are also corps that are more likely to bait there is also zkill to see if some one tends to bait.
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#13 - 2017-01-24 19:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gungnir Winder
Danika Princip wrote:


ECM, neuts, tackle, disruptors, none of these are locked to specific hulls. I don't need to bring in a falcon to jam you, why should I need to bring in a cyno ship (I assume from your posts that you don't think they should be cloaky or have any kind of a tank) to drop the gang waiting just for you?


True. They're a lot less effective though, but the comparison is still a bit silly.

Sure you can fit neuts and ecm on every hull but they're no way near as effective.

Let's take another example, Micro Jump Field Generator. That's a new mechanic, really strong too but it's locked to a specific hull.

Why do you think?

Because it would be silly if every ship could fit that thing.

That's how eve works man. Most ships can do everything, many ships can do 1 thing effectively, and couple of ships can do very unique and powerful things.

Cyno should go under the latter.

Danika Princip wrote:


(I assume from your posts that you don't think they should be cloaky or have any kind of a tank)


I have no idea how they should be. There are many factors to be considered and there are better and far more experienced people that can comment on that. I posted on forums because I think it's time to talk about this mechanic and change it maybe into something more fun, skillfull and specific than it is now.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2017-01-24 20:03:40 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
A ratter with a cyno and gang in range is not caught off guard. In fact they are probably licking their lips when you enter local. Thats why you die to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

I oftentimes disagree with you but this is spot on correct. Twisted

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2017-01-24 20:13:00 UTC
Gungnir Winder wrote:

Let's take another example, Micro Jump Field Generator. That's a new mechanic, really strong too but it's locked to a specific hull.

Why do you think?

Because it would be silly if every ship could fit that thing.

That's how eve works man. Most ships can do everything, many ships can do 1 thing effectively, and couple of ships can do very unique and powerful things.

Cyno should go under the latter.

Danika Princip wrote:


(I assume from your posts that you don't think they should be cloaky or have any kind of a tank)


I have no idea how they should be. There are many factors to be considered and there are better and far more experienced people that can comment on that. I posted on forums because I think it's time to talk about this mechanic and change it maybe into something more fun, skillfull and specific than it is now.



I think you could count all the single class locked modules on the fingers of one hand. I do not think that entire areas of the game, covering combat, industry and logistics, should hinge on a single class of ship. I do not think that taking precautions as a ratter should include mandatory alt accounts. I do not think that elite solo PVPers should be immune to numbers and planning.

I do, however, think that you need to present your idea in a way that doesn't read as 'I am an elite solo PVPer it is BAD and WRONG that people have ways to fight back against me'.
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#16 - 2017-01-24 20:17:36 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


I don't like cyno's much either, but it does seem like you just want to be able to know which ratters have cyno's and which ones you can 1v1 and stroke your e-peen. If the crux of your arguments is 'poor solo players', don't expect sympathy. This isn't a solo game.


I don't really know where this "you want to kill ratters" is coming from, I rarely if ever kill ratters.

But again this is not the point.

The point is that it's an outdated mechanic and it's not on par with where the game is going.

Again, I don't want sympathy for solo pvp, I don't mind dying or have unfair fights, I just think this mechanic is well beyond outdated and needs to be discussed.

My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2017-01-24 20:18:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Khan Wrenth
Daichi Yamato wrote:
A ratter with a cyno and gang in range is not caught off guard. In fact they are probably licking their lips when you enter local. Thats why you die to it and there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't like cyno's much either, but it does seem like you just want to be able to know which ratters have cyno's and which ones you can 1v1 and stroke your e-peen. If the crux of your arguments is 'poor solo players', don't expect sympathy. This isn't a solo game.

I'm not here to endorse OP's idea or anything, don't get me wrong. But I can sympathize with him. Point of reference for my experience - I'm talking about lowsec roams. That being said, cynos certainly seem to be prolific. And my experience has been that they're lit at the first sign of trouble, promising a swift end to whatever PvP we might have otherwise engaged in. I've had to flee the sudden appearance of entire navies more often than not, so in that regard it's been a tool that reduces PvP rather than encourages it. If you get...ahem, knock-blocked enough times and I can understand the frustration building up to the point where someone posits something on the forums.

Again, not endorsing this thread, just sending my sympathies to the OP.
Gungnir Winder
G3AR WAR
#18 - 2017-01-24 20:18:57 UTC

Danika Princip wrote:




I think you could count all the single class locked modules on the fingers of one hand.


Exactly. Cyno should be one of those fingers.


My Youtube channel  Gungnir Winder

Lugh Crow-Slave
#19 - 2017-01-24 20:23:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Khan Wrenth wrote:
And my experience has been that they're lit at the first sign of trouble, promising a swift end to whatever PvP we might have otherwise engaged in.




but that's just it odds are they are bait and would not be there other wise. you want to pvp when some one is bait counter drop. like i said it is easy to tell who is cyno fit by how and what they are flying and it is really easy to tell if you know they tend to fly as bait.


like here we saw a guy flying funny in a prot so just got a couple of relatively new players into bombers and boom
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2017-01-24 20:31:22 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
[but that's just it odds are they are bait and would not be there other wise. you want to pvp when some one is bait counter drop. like i said it is easy to tell who is cyno fit by how and what they are flying and it is really easy to tell if you know they tend to fly as bait.


like here we saw a guy flying funny in a prot so just got a couple of relitivly new players into bombers and boom

Wait, you're telling me the Ragnorok that was sitting on the gate was bait?

KIDDING PEOPLE; don't bite my head off, just thought it was funny. Although yes we did jump through a gate once and a Rag was on the other side. We just kept on truckin' though.
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