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Plex and Thievery

First post
Author
78 Aster
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-01-08 07:27:56 UTC
I have never had a Plex just to start this off. Now, Plex is an item that can be moved in game, but requires 5 extra dollars to get that bonus (maybe some others) so it has actual cash value, even if can't legally leave the game. So, is stealing a Plex any different from stealing real money or something of cash value from someone else? I know in some random MMO's that it is a crime (in some places) to steal items of cash value or even steal them in general but the general rule does not apply to Eve.

On the note of legality, does CCP have to abide by the cyber laws of where the game is played, if offered naturally to that area? Mainly I ask this since most internet news talks about (Korea?) starting to get strict on video game rules.

Born Caldari, Raised Minmatar

Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#2 - 2017-01-08 07:35:59 UTC
Once the PLEX is in-game as a item, it's treated the same as any other item in-game. It can be stolen, destroyed, dropped as loot.

Wormholer for life.

Bjorn Tyrson
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2017-01-08 07:44:48 UTC
Plex is an in game item only. Thus it has no inherent cash value as it cannot be turned back into money and attempting to do so is against the eula.

Most other mmos have rules against theft in general. Those games also do not have mechanics in place in the game itself to facilitate that sort of theft. So the only way that it could occur is for an account to be hacked. And it is the hacking of the account that could put it into the realm of an actual crime depending on the country

Eve on the other hand has mechanics in game that allow for theft to occur. Provided the theft uses the in game methods provided then it is in compliance with the game rules. If an account does get hacked etc. Then yes that is against those rules and action can be taken.
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-01-08 08:02:12 UTC
why would you ever need to move a PLEX? If it's in item hangar in the station it's perfectly safe from everyone but yourself.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#5 - 2017-01-08 08:10:26 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
why would you ever need to move a PLEX? .

This exactly.

If you aren't trying to RMT, why move PLEX ever?
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#6 - 2017-01-08 08:18:08 UTC
The game rules allow theft of corporate assets - if you have been granted access. They also allow theft of assets in space - that's called piracy and it is a legitimate career choice. You can be "robbed" by scammers but they need to use social engineering - the contract system will always tell you exactly what you're getting and paying.

No one can steal from your personal hangar at a station.

You don't need to move PLEX. It can be redeemed at the location you want or it can be activated from anywhere in the game.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-01-08 08:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
If you buy PLEX, and then put it in a position where it can be removed from your possession, forcibly or otherwise, then you deserve to lose it. Once you have handed over your money in trade for in-game assets, those in-game assets are then subject entirely to in-game circumstances, and are not protected as personal property by any law anywhere, because everything in your hangar in game is actually entirely the legal property of CCP and all you've done is given them money to access it. Every isk you have, ship you fly, and round of ammo you fire is the legal property of CCP, which means as long as it remains in game, it can't be stolen by any legal definition. It can only move between the hands of other players, while remaining the legal property of CCP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#8 - 2017-01-08 08:27:22 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
If you aren't trying to RMT, why move PLEX ever?


I had a PLEX drop during one of the events (Frostline?) and had to move it from my wormhole to Jita....

But outside of those rare occasions of short-haul loot transport, there's no sane reason to move them around in space.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#9 - 2017-01-08 08:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
If "stealing" a PLEX ingame was considered theft, then destroying a ship ingame (that you paid for in game time used to grind the ISK to buy, farm the minerals to build or spent a PLEX in exchange for it - so it has about the same "monetary value" too) would have to be considered vandalism as well, which would make the game impossible.

Luckily, it isn't:

Everything you "own" in the game is and stays property of CCP. It cannot be stolen from you, because it's not yours in the first place. If another player "steals" a PLEX from you, it's still property of CCP, and CCP can in principle still access it if they so want to, no matter which player has it, because even the account that has been used to "steal" it is still their property. And since a PLEX cannot "leave" the game, unless someone physically removes the database from the london datacenter, it cannot technically be stolen at all.


What you purchase from CCP when you buy a PLEX is a service. The service consists of giving you access to the ingame item "PLEX", that falls under the same rules like every other ingame item. If you undock with it, or make it accessible to other players in any way, it can be destroyed or stolen like any other ingame item, including the fancy new Marauder you bought using a PLEX.

There is one major difference between a PLEX and most other ingame items, though: There is absolutely no reason to ever put it into a situation where it could be accessed or destroyed by another player. So i'd suggest not doing it. Just keep it in your redeeming system or on any old NPC station, and it will be perfectly safe.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2017-01-08 08:45:25 UTC
All answers so far are correct.

From a purely legalistic standpoint you, the player, are not being deprived of anything because you don't own anything. There is a chance depending on jurisdiction that if a Plex were back-convertible to currency then depriving you of the USE of one might be considered theft even if you didn't own it. However, they are not convertible to currency so the point is moot.
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2017-01-08 09:03:24 UTC
Also, if you DO decide to transport PLEX always remember to separate them individually (do not stack them) and post here to let us know when and where you plan on doing so. Ideally, you'd want to give us an idea as to what kind of ship you plan on doing it in as well, for reasons.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Bank of Illumination
Salvador Sarpat1
#12 - 2017-01-08 09:22:49 UTC
78 Aster wrote:
I have never had a Plex just to start this off. Now, Plex is an item that can be moved in game, but requires 5 extra dollars to get that bonus (maybe some others) so it has actual cash value, even if can't legally leave the game. So, is stealing a Plex any different from stealing real money or something of cash value from someone else? I know in some random MMO's that it is a crime (in some places) to steal items of cash value or even steal them in general but the general rule does not apply to Eve.

On the note of legality, does CCP have to abide by the cyber laws of where the game is played, if offered naturally to that area? Mainly I ask this since most internet news talks about (Korea?) starting to get strict on video game rules.


It can be a form of intellectual property rather than personal property. However you've agreed to the terms and conditions stated in the EULA. Now in the U.S. I'm sure if you have the right connections with enough money for an ongoing legal battle 4-5 years you might end up winningBlink
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2017-01-08 09:35:00 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
why would you ever need to move a PLEX? If it's in item hangar in the station it's perfectly safe from everyone but yourself.
If the PLEX was gained as a loot drop in space or received in a Private Contract and you wanted to sell it for max price, then you'd need to transport it to a specific Trade station.


Neuntausend wrote:
Just keep it in your redeeming system o̶r̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶N̶P̶C̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶, and it will be perfectly safe.
If the PLEX was bought direct from CCP with the intention of selling it at max price, then this will safeguard it while traveling to a specific Trade station.


DMC
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#14 - 2017-01-08 10:02:07 UTC
78 Aster wrote:
I have never had a Plex just to start this off. Now, Plex is an item that can be moved in game, but requires 5 extra dollars to get that bonus (maybe some others) so it has actual cash value, even if can't legally leave the game. So, is stealing a Plex any different from stealing real money or something of cash value from someone else? I know in some random MMO's that it is a crime (in some places) to steal items of cash value or even steal them in general but the general rule does not apply to Eve.

On the note of legality, does CCP have to abide by the cyber laws of where the game is played, if offered naturally to that area? Mainly I ask this since most internet news talks about (Korea?) starting to get strict on video game rules.


Rules are changing as the law finally catches up with this shiny new thing called the internet.

Which is fascinating as it opens up discussions on what is the nature of ownership?

For example, money is a virtual concept. Most of us only see it as numbers on our screens now, as we pay by EFTPOS or pay online.

Theft isn't the only consideration.

Gambling is too.

Places like the UK Gambling Commission hold that virtual items hold no "monetary" worth so you can offer virtual prizes for real gambling, and not have to be regulated as a gambling organisation.

This is despite all us knowing that you can sell virtual items for real money. The law is laggy, by about 20 years.

Singapore is looking into changing laws, Japan has, and I imagine a bunch of other countries are doing the same.

Companies like CCP have to abide by local laws, but usually those laws are not really enforceable, and/or the companies are difficult to engage, Google for example.

For now most online companies rely on their EULA saying "everything belong to us".

But that won't work for ever.


~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~

Salvos Rhoska
#15 - 2017-01-08 10:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Hir Miriel wrote:
For example, money is a virtual concept.

Money is not a virtual concept, though it can be represented as such.

Furthermore all currency whether physical or represented virtually (as digital), is technically owned by the issuing state.
You are merely allowed use of it.

This is concretely demonstrated by the sovereign right of the issuing state to devalue, change denomination, name, existence etc of the currency they have issued.

Adoption of the euro (and hence extinction of their own national currency) by many european states as a case in point.
Also the Chinese long time fixing of their currencies value to the US dollar.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#16 - 2017-01-08 10:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Hir Miriel wrote:
For now most online companies rely on their EULA saying "everything belong to us".

But that won't work for ever.

It has to. Just imagine they were not able to do that: online games would be next to impossible to run. People would just sue over a ruined Counterstrike statistic or lost ingame gold or blown up Spaceships or whatever. Also, consider this: If an ingame item was considered your property, what if your account lapsed or got banned - would they have to pay you back for your "property" that you cannot access anymore? What if you demanded that they hand out your "property"?

And this does not only apply to games.

What you pay for when you sign up for an online game or a streaming service or other things on the internet is typically a service, not a product you can buy. You pay them money and they do something for you - like when you ride the train. There's no transfer of property involved, yet you pay money for it. Of course none of the assets used to provide the service will be your property. You can't take the seat with you when you get off the train, even though you technically paid for the seat reservation - that would be a ridiculous notion. And if you get off the train early, you won't get anything back either. And if they throw you out, because you are acting stupid that will usually be covered by their terms and conditions, and you won't get anything back either. Why would it be different with games?

You just need to make yourself aware of what you are paying for.
Wanda Fayne
#17 - 2017-01-08 11:34:20 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Also, if you DO decide to transport PLEX always remember to separate them individually (do not stack them) and post here to let us know when and where you plan on doing so. Ideally, you'd want to give us an idea as to what kind of ship you plan on doing it in as well, for reasons.


Oh yes, call Omar's Plex Escort Services!

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Etain Darklightner Agittain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-01-08 11:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Etain Darklightner Agittain
As above, by clicking "I agree to the terms and conditions of the EULA." You agree to abide by whatever policies and procedures said company has in place with regard to the in game items you purchase from their site.

Since EvE is a sandbox game, and plex is an item you can hold in your cargo, it can and will be taken from you.

There are ways to get around this. Redeem the plex you purchase in your hangar without ever undocking, as was mentioned above. This poses the least amount of risk to you, as a player, to lose it.

If you absolutely must move it in game, be able to fly a hauler that has bonuses against cargo hold scanners. They cloak as well. Get get good at mwd + cloaking or get rekt.

Complaining about theft of plex, after you agreed to the EULA terms and conditions is pointless. If you do not agree with how your plex can be stolen in any situation with it outside of station, you should consider the above suggestions or stop playing, as ganking people with plex in their holds is a viable way of maintaining a subscription in game without paying any real currency for it.

To me it's ingenious how CCP allows this. It drives the content in game and personally, if I scanned down someone with one or more plexes in their hold, I'd pop you myself...

Thats just me though.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#19 - 2017-01-08 16:05:29 UTC
Legal questions wont be answered here, period.


Once you have a PLEX it is an in game item. In game items do not have monetary value.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.