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Bumping Mechanics Discussion

First post
Author
#61 - 2016-12-31 16:33:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.
Slaver's Union
#62 - 2016-12-31 20:47:36 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.

I dont see how that is an issue or should even be a consideration of us, much less CCP. Latency is a major part of,gaming experiences in any online game, so this complaint is silly. I do feel sorry for you and others in that situation, but Im not going to cry about people in London having a better game experience than I do.
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2017-01-02 02:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiasa Kite
I really liked Black Pedro's first idea when he first posted it, God knows how long ago. To be honest, I still like it, because it shakes up the meta so violently.

Mechanically, it's fine. It switches the existing form of bump tackle to a more conventional warp disruptor. The issue starts to arise when you consider the impact on the meta.

The vast, vast majority of freighter ganks occur in Uedama and Niarja. If freighter ganking were to occur as before, you can guarantee antigankers would camp the gates to Hades. Being able to pick off a tackler with literally any number of any ships you want is a pretty damn big advantage. To be honest, I quite like it as it encourages the carebears to gang up on the big meanie gankers.

The downside to this is that it would force a reaction from the gankers. Simple prime-time frieghter ganks in the choke-point systems just wouldn't be viable owing to defensive resistance. So gankers residing in Uedama, for example, would instead start targeting a much larger portion of the Jita <-> Dodixie trade pipe. They could also potentially start more freighter ganking activities elsewhere, forcing antigankers to be much more active in their pursuits. This of course leads to defensive forces being spread thin and potentially being overwhelmed. Also a pretty exciting scenario IMO.

The primary trade routes would have plenty of antigankers/pvpers/hopefuls helping keep the area gank free, while lesser frequented areas of space wouldn't be as profitable for gankers - unless they laid bait contracts.

The sheer potential for new play and counterplay options for freighter pilots, their escorts and antigankers is huge and I'm really quite surprised CCP haven't made any visible steps to implementing it.

edit: I suppose in other words, it's a MASSIVE nerf to freighter ganking in its current form, forcing gankers to change tac, but a new meta would quickly be established. What's not to like?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Slaver's Union
#64 - 2017-01-02 15:10:12 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
I really liked Black Pedro's first idea when he first posted it, God knows how long ago. To be honest, I still like it, because it shakes up the meta so violently.

Mechanically, it's fine. It switches the existing form of bump tackle to a more conventional warp disruptor. The issue starts to arise when you consider the impact on the meta.

The vast, vast majority of freighter ganks occur in Uedama and Niarja. If freighter ganking were to occur as before, you can guarantee antigankers would camp the gates to Hades. Being able to pick off a tackler with literally any number of any ships you want is a pretty damn big advantage. To be honest, I quite like it as it encourages the carebears to gang up on the big meanie gankers.

The downside to this is that it would force a reaction from the gankers. Simple prime-time frieghter ganks in the choke-point systems just wouldn't be viable owing to defensive resistance. So gankers residing in Uedama, for example, would instead start targeting a much larger portion of the Jita <-> Dodixie trade pipe. They could also potentially start more freighter ganking activities elsewhere, forcing antigankers to be much more active in their pursuits. This of course leads to defensive forces being spread thin and potentially being overwhelmed. Also a pretty exciting scenario IMO.

The primary trade routes would have plenty of antigankers/pvpers/hopefuls helping keep the area gank free, while lesser frequented areas of space wouldn't be as profitable for gankers - unless they laid bait contracts.

The sheer potential for new play and counterplay options for freighter pilots, their escorts and antigankers is huge and I'm really quite surprised CCP haven't made any visible steps to implementing it.

edit: I suppose in other words, it's a MASSIVE nerf to freighter ganking in its current form, forcing gankers to change tac, but a new meta would quickly be established. What's not to like?

The Niarja and Uedama systems are great for ganking, but the infamous CODE gank fleets where they would bag 15-20 freighters in one sitting arent a thing anymore. What you have is basically miniluv with scouts, scanners and bumpers scattered all around the hubs and pipes, looking for whales.

A few CSM members held a roundtable where they discussed bumping and ganking risk and mechanics with both anti-gankers and gankers. Not trying to be a negative nancy, but CCP isnt going to read and listen to random thread #150 about bumping or ganking. If you want to lobby for a change or have a good idea, go hunt down a CSM member.
Pandemic Legion
#65 - 2017-01-02 19:23:29 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.



No matter your internet speed its fast enough to get the commands in to get the freighter into warp long before anyone can get their bumping ships up to speed.
#66 - 2017-01-03 08:32:58 UTC
Removed a whole bunch of off topic posts. Keep it on topic and civil please. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2017-01-03 22:25:35 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Removed a whole bunch of off topic posts. Keep it on topic and civil please. Thank you.


Thank you.

How bizarre too. My last thread on risk and freighter ganking was turning into a thread on bumping. This thread on possible alternatives to freighter bumping keeps wanting to become a thread on risk and freighter ganking. Shocked

And...not that surprised, but none of the usual suspects are in this thread. Bumping sucks, supposedly, but they can't come here and even discuss the ideas that were presented?

Guess that tells us all we need to know about the anti-bumping posters. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2017-01-05 18:56:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ok I'll put a pin in this no counters myth.

First counter is to web the freighter into warp. All you need is a friend in any ship with a few webs fitted but something with a Web range bonus is best. Your freighter now warps so fast that not only is it impossible to bump but also goes into warp backwards.

Second is if you get bumped. Fly a fast frigate out in the direction the freighter is being bumped and at 150 km warp the freighter to the frigate. You can the Web it into warp.

Third is to simply bump the bumpers. This takes some degree of manual piloting but can be done with a few cheap cruisers.

Fourth option is to gank the bumping ship. These bumping ships don't tend to have any tank so are fairly easy to kill.

Fish is to suicide web the bumper. Done right the freighter will get away.


The problem with bumping is you are basically 'webbing' a ship with no consequence for doing so. It isnt a lack of counters that is the problem it is getting away with webbing in highsec space when you should die to concord instead.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2017-01-05 21:35:56 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ok I'll put a pin in this no counters myth.

First counter is to web the freighter into warp. All you need is a friend in any ship with a few webs fitted but something with a Web range bonus is best. Your freighter now warps so fast that not only is it impossible to bump but also goes into warp backwards.

Second is if you get bumped. Fly a fast frigate out in the direction the freighter is being bumped and at 150 km warp the freighter to the frigate. You can the Web it into warp.

Third is to simply bump the bumpers. This takes some degree of manual piloting but can be done with a few cheap cruisers.

Fourth option is to gank the bumping ship. These bumping ships don't tend to have any tank so are fairly easy to kill.

Fish is to suicide web the bumper. Done right the freighter will get away.


The problem with bumping is you are basically 'webbing' a ship with no consequence for doing so. It isnt a lack of counters that is the problem it is getting away with webbing in highsec space when you should die to concord instead.


It is a primitive form of tackle, sure, but it does not actually interfere with any of the ships functions nor does it cause any damage, hence the lack of CONCORD response. CONCORDING ships for bumping is also going to be problematic as some players will try to get bumped by people, such as sitting on the Jita undock and getting in a freighter's way. Also, it will be very hard if not impossible for the programming to determine intent.

Hence this thread. Discuss alternatives to bumping. But the idea of CONCORD is probably out due to the aforementioned reasons.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

#70 - 2017-01-06 02:01:18 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
The problem with bumping is you are basically 'webbing' a ship with no consequence for doing so. It isnt a lack of counters that is the problem it is getting away with webbing in highsec space when you should die to concord instead.
I don't know where players get this idea that the magical space police should always save them from non-consensual interactions in highsec. From shooting MTUs, to stealing loot, to wardecs themselves, there are many examples of game mechanics that allow players to interfere with your gameplay in highsec without the conflict-killing, heavy-handed mechanic of CONCORD getting in the way.

Arguably, bumping is one of the most benign forms of a non-consensual interaction one can imagine. No damage is done and no loot, real or future, is lost. Sure, it is used as a poor-man's tackle against capital ships, but in itself it does nothing but prevent alignment and thus warping.

Its problem is that CONCORD prevents the most obvious avenues to clear the tackle, not that there are "no NPC-enforced consequences" to the activity. There are plenty of counters and preventative measures to avoid having your capital ship tackled (or release it from such), but many of them are non-obvious to the novice (or just plain bad) player. The big and lumbering freighter was always intended to be slow and vulnerable to harassment by other players and thus a conflict driver.

But even if CCP ever gets around to implementing the 3 minute cap, its most likely form will be that a suicide point will still prevent the freighter from entering warp and force a reset of the timer. Freighter gankers already sacrifice a ship every 15 minutes to keep a freighter in space, so they will just do that every 3 minutes now. Nothing will change: freighters will still die and carebears will still whine that it is unfair that they can be shot at at all and move on to agitating for the next 'one more nerf'.
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2017-01-06 03:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Black Pedro wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
The problem with bumping is you are basically 'webbing' a ship with no consequence for doing so. It isnt a lack of counters that is the problem it is getting away with webbing in highsec space when you should die to concord instead.
I don't know where players get this idea that the magical space police should always save them from non-consensual interactions in highsec. From shooting MTUs, to stealing loot, to wardecs themselves, there are many examples of game mechanics that allow players to interfere with your gameplay in highsec without the conflict-killing, heavy-handed mechanic of CONCORD getting in the way.


Well, IMO, the idea is that HS PvP is bad for the game. Never mind that when HS PvP was more viable and diverse the game grew. It is an attitude of entitlement--that players are entitled to play the game free of interactions from others. They'll even erroneously cite the notion of a sandbox, but the problem is that the sandbox lets you play however you want, but says nothing about others interacting with you.

Black Pedro wrote:
Its problem is that CONCORD prevents the most obvious avenues to clear the tackle, not that there are "no NPC-enforced consequences" to the activity. There are plenty of counters and preventative measures to avoid having your capital ship tackled (or release it from such), but many of them are non-obvious to the novice (or just plain bad) player. The big and lumbering freighter was always intended to be slow and vulnerable to harassment by other players and thus a conflict driver.

But even if CCP ever gets around to implementing the 3 minute cap, its most likely form will be that a suicide point will still prevent the freighter from entering warp and force a reset of the timer. Freighter gankers already sacrifice a ship every 15 minutes to keep a freighter in space, so they will just do that every 3 minutes now. Nothing will change: freighters will still die and carebears will still whine that it is unfair that they can be shot at at all and move on to agitating for the next 'one more nerf'.


Exactly, and that suicide point will give the freighter a logoff timer which means even logging off won't work. So every 2.5 minutes or so the gankers will reset the logoff timer to 15 minutes. Good going guys you whined so hard you ****** yourselves.

Edit: Logoff timer, not weapons.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2017-01-06 11:02:04 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ok I'll put a pin in this no counters myth.

First counter is to web the freighter into warp. All you need is a friend in any ship with a few webs fitted but something with a Web range bonus is best. Your freighter now warps so fast that not only is it impossible to bump but also goes into warp backwards.

Second is if you get bumped. Fly a fast frigate out in the direction the freighter is being bumped and at 150 km warp the freighter to the frigate. You can the Web it into warp.

Third is to simply bump the bumpers. This takes some degree of manual piloting but can be done with a few cheap cruisers.

Fourth option is to gank the bumping ship. These bumping ships don't tend to have any tank so are fairly easy to kill.

Fish is to suicide web the bumper. Done right the freighter will get away.


The problem with bumping is you are basically 'webbing' a ship with no consequence for doing so. It isnt a lack of counters that is the problem it is getting away with webbing in highsec space when you should die to concord instead.


The counters also don't invoke concord.
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2017-01-06 18:35:53 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Hence this thread. Discuss alternatives to bumping. But the idea of CONCORD is probably out due to the aforementioned reasons.


You could just remove disable ship to ship collision in HS all the time as if they were all cloaked. This remove the current ghetto point you can get.

It's not hard to find way how to remove this.
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2017-01-12 08:34:18 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Hence this thread. Discuss alternatives to bumping. But the idea of CONCORD is probably out due to the aforementioned reasons.


You could just remove disable ship to ship collision in HS all the time as if they were all cloaked. This remove the current ghetto point you can get.

It's not hard to find way how to remove this.



No it isn't hard to remove it, but the idea of this thread is to replace it with something else that as Black Pedro says:

1. Gives the opportunity to clear tackle, and
2. Allow for possible escalations in terms of fights.

Of course notice that none of the anti-bumping people are in this thread. None of them. Speaks volumes as to their understanding of the game. To be quite honest I think it is safe to say, at this point, that all they want is CCP to fix the problem for them as they can't or won't fix it for themselves. To which I say CCP should let them burn and die in Uedama and Niarja.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Caldari State
#75 - 2017-01-27 10:18:16 UTC
Is it really that hard to create a new module for ship which could be turned on to bump others?
Or make some toggle for players which in enabled state allows them to bump but also gives suspect, and in disabled state doesn't affect other ships?
Seriously, I've been in programming more than 10 years now and can't see any unsolvable issues that prevent implementing that.
On ping notice - you could make server take ping into consideration when calculating who've done action first.
#76 - 2017-01-27 10:59:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.



No matter your internet speed its fast enough to get the commands in to get the freighter into warp long before anyone can get their bumping ships up to speed.



^this only exception is if you got 1/10000 unlucky and land with someone inside you
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2017-01-27 13:57:00 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.



No matter your internet speed its fast enough to get the commands in to get the freighter into warp long before anyone can get their bumping ships up to speed.



^this only exception is if you got 1/10000 unlucky and land with someone inside you


If webber become prevalent enough to really disturb ganking operation, suicide tacklers will become a thing and they are just as fast as webbers. It will raise their total cost by a few million and we are pretty much back to square one. It's better because something happened but we're still pointing stuff by playing with the physic engine.
#78 - 2017-01-27 14:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It only plays a part if you are trying to play from the Ross ice shelf or low earth orbit. Nothing can catch a webbed freighter, there is simply not enough time.

Again with the assumptions that everyone living in a populated area has fast internet because you do.
I live about 40 miles outside a major west coast city and for various "technical" reasons the latency in my area is so bad that I essentially I play EvE on a 2 second server tick because that is the best my internet connection will allow. If you are interested I can give you all the details of why as it was explained to me by the phone company, cell phone companies and the cable companies in teh mean time I will not waste the forum space sine you likely do not care.



No matter your internet speed its fast enough to get the commands in to get the freighter into warp long before anyone can get their bumping ships up to speed.



^this only exception is if you got 1/10000 unlucky and land with someone inside you


If webber become prevalent enough to really disturb ganking operation, suicide tacklers will become a thing and they are just as fast as webbers. It will raise their total cost by a few million and we are pretty much back to square one. It's better because something happened but we're still pointing stuff by playing with the physic engine.



They start doing that you start brining suicide ecm even a boosted bantam has a good chance of jamming most small ships

Just like anyplace in eve your enemy adapts then so do you this should be no differant
Mercenary Coalition
#79 - 2017-01-27 16:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If webber become prevalent enough to really disturb ganking operation, suicide tacklers will become a thing and they are just as fast as webbers. It will raise their total cost by a few million and we are pretty much back to square one. It's better because something happened but we're still pointing stuff by playing with the physic engine.

Suicide tackle Blackbirds are already a big thing and they are a lot faster than webbers (they lock the freighter faster and they apply the point before the webber can apply apply the webs). CFC recently even went so far as to continuously suicide tackle Jump Freighters in Isanamo until a gank squad arrived to kill it. They did not bump, they just threw suicide warp disruptor after another against the ship so that a gank squad could warp in.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
They start doing that you start brining suicide ecm even a boosted bantam has a good chance of jamming most small ships

Just like anyplace in eve your enemy adapts then so do you this should be no differant

That is a pointless attempt. Not only do you require 3 chars to pull that off (please do not suggest actual other players, that's not going to happen because it's too much effort for no rewards), jaming the pointer does not achieve what you think it would. The pointer is there to give the bumper Machariel the necessary seconds to reach the freighter for the initial bump, nothing else. That is achieve by just applying the point for 1 second as the freighter slows down and the webber applied the webs to a non-warping freighter. Cycling the webs and getting the freighter to warp again takes up to 10 seconds, which is more than enough time for the Machariel to reach the freighter.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-01-27 17:45:33 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If webber become prevalent enough to really disturb ganking operation, suicide tacklers will become a thing and they are just as fast as webbers. It will raise their total cost by a few million and we are pretty much back to square one. It's better because something happened but we're still pointing stuff by playing with the physic engine.

Suicide tackle Blackbirds are already a big thing and they are a lot faster than webbers (they lock the freighter faster and they apply the point before the webber can apply apply the webs). CFC recently even went so far as to continuously suicide tackle Jump Freighters in Isanamo until a gank squad arrived to kill it. They did not bump, they just threw suicide warp disruptor after another against the ship so that a gank squad could warp in.
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
They start doing that you start brining suicide ecm even a boosted bantam has a good chance of jamming most small ships

Just like anyplace in eve your enemy adapts then so do you this should be no differant

That is a pointless attempt. Not only do you require 3 chars to pull that off (please do not suggest actual other players, that's not going to happen because it's too much effort for no rewards), jaming the pointer does not achieve what you think it would. The pointer is there to give the bumper Machariel the necessary seconds to reach the freighter for the initial bump, nothing else. That is achieve by just applying the point for 1 second as the freighter slows down and the webber applied the webs to a non-warping freighter. Cycling the webs and getting the freighter to warp again takes up to 10 seconds, which is more than enough time for the Machariel to reach the freighter.


I agree with Lugh Crow-Slave if the other side adapts then you have to adapt to that adaptation. Coming and and complaining on the forums is not terribly persuasive, at least not until there has been a time interval to see how people adapt or if they can. For example, if you are going to carry very valuable cargo in a JF, then have that exit cyno up and lit for as soon as you undock. There are over 100 systems withing jump range of a JF in Isanamo. Undock and jump out to who know's where.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

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