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When NPCs become detrimental to PVP

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#301 - 2017-01-03 17:20:48 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lena Crews wrote:


It does.

The problem is there is only one NPC corp for one bloodline where this has an impact (Deep Core Mining/Deteis I believe). s.


Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently).



I'm referring to that list.

It still only impacts one corporation that players can belong to... and they can only belong if they are one specific bloodline.

It's really simple to remove that corporation from the list with mining fleets. Problem solved.


It would seem it will be applied to a great deal more than just that 1 NPC corp.
Malcorath Sacerdos
Coalition of Brutality
Warped Intentions
#302 - 2017-01-03 17:20:52 UTC
Lena Crews wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
It makes sense that a player would lose standing for killing capsuleers in a corp.

Just as killing capsuleers in a player corp causes antagonism.

In this way NPC corps emulate player corps.



It does.

The problem is there is only one NPC corp for one bloodline where this has an impact (Deep Core Mining/Deteis I believe).

It's stupid to have a protection mechanism there for just one bloodline's NPC corp. "Oh... he's in DCM. I won't attack him because I don't want mining fleet's defense forces attacking me."

It has a really easy solution as well. DCM shouldn't have mining fleets so that no players get that protection. Just move those fleets to another NPC corp. Problem solved. Those attacking miners can still get bad enough standings to be attacked on sight... but those who've been ganking players for years don't all of a sudden become KOS to a specific group of NPC miners that didn't exist when they began ganking. And players don't get protection from ganking because their NPC corp has mining fleets.



or give all player bloodlines corps mining fleets!
Salvos Rhoska
#303 - 2017-01-03 17:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You are wrong.

Yeah sure. This is just stupid. You can't link it, because it doesn't exist, otherwise instead of diverting and avoiding the evidence, you'd just provide it and correct me.


I'm looking at the linked EVE Dev post right now.

You are wrong.

Either do your own homework, or pay me to provide it for you.
I have looked at all the links provided in this thread and you are full of bullshit right now.


Nope.

Also, up yours for the attitude.
If you had not been such a **** about this I would have already provided it to you, gratis.

Either pay me, or do your own due diligence.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#304 - 2017-01-03 17:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You are wrong.

Yeah sure. This is just stupid. You can't link it, because it doesn't exist, otherwise instead of diverting and avoiding the evidence, you'd just provide it and correct me.


I'm looking at the linked EVE Dev post right now.

You are wrong.

Either do your own homework, or pay me to provide it for you.
I have looked at all the links provided in this thread and you are full of bullshit right now.


Nope.

Also, up yours for the attitude.
If you had not been such a **** about this I would have already provided it to you, gratis.

Either pay me, or do your own due diligence.

I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada.

Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from.
Salvos Rhoska
#305 - 2017-01-03 17:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada.

Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from.


As I said, I have the linked EVE Dev post from this thread which states the number of NPC Corps to which this likely will apply right infront of me.

I dont care whether you believe me or not.

You can either pay me, or look harder.

Id have given it to you for free had you not been such an insufferable **** about it.
Im under no obligation to provide you with anything.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#306 - 2017-01-03 17:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada.

Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from.


As I said, I have the linked EVE Dev post from this thread which states the number of NPC Corps right infront of me.
I dont care whether you believe me or not.

You can either pay me, or look harder.

Id have given it to you for free had you not been such an insufferable **** about it.

You wouldn't have given it because you can't. Plain and simple. I only pushed because when I asked very simple you just diverted and went almost straight to pay you or do my own homewirk.

So since your fictional link doesn't exist and you have no evidence to support what you are claiming, I'll just go to Larrikin and ask him in order to get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

I dont really care one way or the other, I just like to know the facts so I can correctly answer other people in the future.

My original request back on the previous page was a genuine question because I thought that perhaps I missed something. But I didn't miss it. I've double checked all the links already; and unfortunately you are full of **** but have dug your heels in about it.
Tykari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2017-01-03 17:45:16 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I've done my homework. You can't provide it because there is no evidence to support what you have wrongly claimed. Zero, zip, nada.

Just another full of crap statement that can't be backed up when asked simply where you got that information from.


As I said, I have the linked EVE Dev post from this thread which states the number of NPC Corps right infront of me.
I dont care whether you believe me or not.

You can either pay me, or look harder.

Id have given it to you for free had you not been such an insufferable **** about it.
Im under no obligation to provide you with anything.


Or you could just share the link and highlight the part that proves your point, so other people who want to join the discussion don't need to go searching first, and perhaps actually be helpfull.

Dev Post

CCP Paradox wrote:
Hello spacefriends!

Starting from today, we (Team Phenomenon) have now enabled the new Mining Operations on Singularity.
Some of you may have read the CSM minutes or perhaps have seen this teased on our Updates website, More Activity In Asteroid Belts.

This is a first stage at creating new procedural PvE content for EVE, to make the universe more exciting, vibrant and alive.

What you can expect to see across the universe, are NPCs mining asteroids inside asteroid belts. Due to the procedural way in which these spawn
, it will be hard to recommend a specific system(s) to visit, so I would have to encourage exploration of the belts for now. These NPCs will appear in mining frigates, barges, and exhumers. Haulers will be coming to retrieve their ore when they are almost full, and the asteroids will deplete if mined out by the NPCs.

The mining NPCs will react to hostiles if you should attack them, and call in a fleet for assistance. They will also react according to your standings, should they be negative. This fleet will be composed of several roles, and will behave differently than you have seen before in the game. Expect to see their fleets made up of logistics, tacklers, and specialists in EWAR tactics.

All procedural mining NPCs will be flying ships denoted by a diamond (♦), for example you may see some of these in the overview:

Ducia Foundy Venture | ♦ Venture
Minedrill Retriever | ♦ Retriever
Astral Mining Inc. Iteron Mark V | ♦ Iteron Mark V
Minmatar Mining Corporation | ♦ Scythe

Additionally, your standings against the mining corporation will be reflected in the overview, you will see the icons color change through the following gradient depending on current standings:

Terrible - Red
Bad - Orange
Neutral - Blue
Good - Light Blue
Excellent - White

We will be conducting a mass test at a later date, to test the NPCs specifically. Please look forward to it!

There will be more information at this years EVE Vegas, which begins this Friday (28th October) at 11:00PM EVE time, I would recommend checking this out. http://vegas.eveonline.com/

Note:
Current Mining Operations are, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar. There are three mining corporations running operations from each of these all over the universe. Pirate operations will be coming soon.


In other words, so far the only NPC corps mentioned are the few mining corporations and pirate factions. There are no mentions of any other NPC corporations receiving similar fleets, at least not in that post.

There is however the implication in the first lines that this is only the first step, which knowing CCP however, is in no way a confirmation that this will apply to all NPC's corps or that it means that is strictly about mining fleets.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Salvos Rhoska
#308 - 2017-01-03 17:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Goddamit, Tykari....

Anyways, see Scipio?
I wasnt lying or wrong.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#309 - 2017-01-03 18:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Goddamit, Tykari....

Anyways, see Scipio?
I wasnt lying or wrong.

You are wrong. There is no evidence to support your claim that it will be extended to other NPC Corps, aside from pirate corporations, which are already also partly implemented on SiSi now.

I provided that link originally, back on page 6, so I am very familiar with it.

But I'll see what Larrikin has to say anyway because I'd rather be in a position to be correct and helpful to others that ask the same thing in future, rather than make up stuff that isn't supported by anything CCP has said.

CCP have said they have bigger plans in relation to the new AI, including NPCs manufacturing ships in their own ship yards, but we have no additional details on who that will apply to or what other plans they have. They certainly haven't stated that mining fleets will be extended to include other empire based NPC Corps. I am fairly sure that if Larrikin responds, he won't rule it out, but at this point we certainly have nothing to go claiming that is CCP's plan.
Salvos Rhoska
#310 - 2017-01-03 18:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Goddamit, Tykari....

Anyways, see Scipio?
I wasnt lying or wrong.

You are wrong. There is no evidence to support your claim that it will be extended to other NPC Corps, aside from pirate corporations, which are already also partly implemented on SiSi now.

I provided that link originally, back on page 6, so I am very familiar with it.

But I'll see what Larrikin has to say anyway because I'd rather be in a position to be correct and helpful to others that ask the same thing in future, rather than make up stuff that isn't supported by anything CCP has said.

CCP have said they have bigger plans in relation to the new AI, including NPCs manufacturing ships in their own ship yards, but we have no additional details on who that will apply to or what other plans they have. They certainly haven't stated that mining fleets will be extended to include other empire based NPC Corps. I am fairly sure that if Larrikin responds, he won't rule it out, but at this point we certainly have nothing to go claiming that is CCP's plan.


12 NPC corps + Pirates.

The poster I was responding to was concerned it was only 1.
I said there are more in the pipeline.
You asked where that was said.
Well. as in that post, there are 12 NPC corps with this system on SiSi.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#311 - 2017-01-03 18:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
12 NPC corps + Pirates

Yes. Those 12 are implemented already. This claim:

Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently).

Has nothing to support the first half of it. When asked simply where that was coming from, because I can totally miss things, you continued to claim there is evidence to support it and you were directly looking at it. You weren't.
Salvos Rhoska
#312 - 2017-01-03 18:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
12 NPC corps + Pirates

Yes. Those 12 are implemented already. This claim:

Its in the pipeline that this will be applied to many more NPC corps, as well as Pirate corps (possibly differently).

Has nothing to support the first half of it. When asked simply where that was coming from, because I can totally miss things, you continued to claim there is evidence to support it and you were directly looking at it. You weren't.


I was responding to a concern by another poster that there was only 1 to which this applies.

I told THEM there are more in the pipeline.

12 is more than 1.

You then asked where is the source for that.
Well, you are looking at it.

I never claimed there would be more than are indicated in the linked Dev post.

Do you understand?
Railyn Quisqueya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2017-01-03 18:36:56 UTC
Heh, so it would seem at least 12 NPC corps are being upgraded. It should make PVE and PVP a bit more interesting. I'm in.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#314 - 2017-01-03 18:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I was responding to a concern by another poster that there was only 1 to which this applies.

I told THEM there are more in the pipeline.

You responded to a concern that of the current 12, only 1 is a Corporation that a standings hit occurs for killing capsuleers.

However, at this point I have devoted far to much time to this and I now have the answer I can use and provide evidence to support when asked in future.
Salvos Rhoska
#315 - 2017-01-03 18:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I was responding to a concern by another poster that there was only 1 to which this applies.

I told THEM there are more in the pipeline.

You responded to a concern that of the current 12, only 1 is a Corporation that a standings hit occurs for killing capsuleers.

However, at this point I have devoted far to much time to this and I now have the answer I can use and provide evidence to support when asked in future.


No. I responded to a concern that there is only 1 currently ingame.
I told that poster there are more in the pipeline.

The NPC corp systems on SiSi are not yet ingame, proper.

You then got stuck on that and asked where I have that information.
The source is the same as yours.

Instead of politely asking for a source, you presumed to demand one.
When I refused, you started insulting and aspersions.

A) You interjected yourself into a running discussion without understanding its context.
B) You started demanding things.
C) Nowhere have I been wrong, or lied, despite your repeated accusations of that.

In future, if you wish someone to provide you with anything, request it respectfully.
Also read the context of that which you are involving yourself in.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#316 - 2017-01-03 18:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Railyn Quisqueya wrote:
Heh, so it would seem at least 12 NPC corps are being upgraded. It should make PVE and PVP a bit more interesting. I'm in.

There are already more than 12 (12 on TQ and additional pirate corporations on SiSi). They are:

Amarr (all on TQ):
Ducia Foundry
Joint Harvesting
HZO Refinery

Caldari (all on TQ):

Deep Core Mining Inc. (also a player NPC Corp)
Poksu Mineral Group
Minedrill

Gallente (all on TQ):

Astral Mining Inc.
Material Acquisition
Allotek Industries

Minmatar (all on TQ):
Minmatar Mining Corporation
Vherokior Tribe
Thukker Mix

Pirate Corporations (all on TQ):
Guristas ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6695174#post6695174 )
Blood Raiders ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6699404#post6699404 )
Sansha ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6701607#post6701607 )
Angel Cartel ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6701607#post6702695 )


Not yet implemented, but confirmed there are plans:

Rogue Drone ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6703402#post6703402 )

These were introduced to n Ascension ( https://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-eve-online-ascension )

I would suspect some other pirate corporations coming, but we don't have the details yet.

To find them (to either attack them, or to mine alongside ones you have high standings with so they will support you), look in and adjacent (2-3 jumps) to systems those Corporations have stations (which can be shown on the in game map).

There are none of these currently in wormhole space. It's limited at this point to highsec, lowsec and nullsec. CCP have said this is because the NPCs can't currently use the probe window or find anomolies, whereas they can warp to static asteroid belts and very soon use gates. CCP is hoping to expand the AI to be able to probe at some point in the future ( https://youtu.be/7lgP_8b5gBM?t=1625 ).
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
#317 - 2017-01-03 20:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Torin Corax
Lena Crews wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
It makes sense that a player would lose standing for killing capsuleers in a corp.

Just as killing capsuleers in a player corp causes antagonism.

In this way NPC corps emulate player corps.



It does.

The problem is there is only one NPC corp for one bloodline where this has an impact (Deep Core Mining/Deteis I believe).

It's stupid to have a protection mechanism there for just one bloodline's NPC corp. "Oh... he's in DCM. I won't attack him because I don't want mining fleet's defense forces attacking me."

It has a really easy solution as well. DCM shouldn't have mining fleets so that no players get that protection. Just move those fleets to another NPC corp. Problem solved. Those attacking miners can still get bad enough standings to be attacked on sight... but those who've been ganking players for years don't all of a sudden become KOS to a specific group of NPC miners that didn't exist when they began ganking. And players don't get protection from ganking because their NPC corp has mining fleets.


Pretty much this^

If I attack NPC miners I lose standings. OK, no different from attacking any other NPC then.

If I attack a player in low sec I **** off that player. OK, that player now reships and hunts me down for some payback.
Or...
That player wardecs me (because I'm not in an NPC corp) and hunts me, and my friends down with his/ her friends, for some payback.
Or...
That player pays some mercs to wardec/ suicide gank me/ my friends for some payback.

Or..
That player was in an NPC corp that has active mining response fleets, and the NPCs now "decide" that I am KOS anywhere where there might be those fleets active, and those NPC fleets blow me up if I'm in a ship that can't solo them simply because they spawned while I was in the middle of a fight with an unrelated player somewhere else.

Maybe I've just been playing too long, but one of these options just strikes me as un-Eve like.
I remember the days where if you annoyed the wrong people you dealt with the consequences of having mercs hound the **** out of you for as long as the aggrieved party could afford to pay them. This was Eve consequences.
There was also the possibility that the aggrieved party would "shadow" you with an alt, learn your routine (if you had one) then lay a trap to pay you back.
That is the Eve I signed up for. It's the Eve that I love.

If standings really are going to matter in this way IN LOW SEC, then is there any chance of a full standings reset to any standings that have been effected through PvP (not including sec status naturally)?
This is a new mechanic, but the standings I have are the result of 10 years of playing without this mechanic.

One quick question to anyone who is reading this who does not regularly operate in Lowsec...would this mechanism, of itself, provide enough incentive for you to start operating in lowsec on a regular basis?

Another quick question to those who do operate in lowsec on a regular basis...would this mechanism, of itself, dissuade you from attacking those players who are members of DCM?

I for one will perhaps be a little more careful about the engagements I initiate. Obviously, I'm not happy about this, but it is what it is.

I do feel I should be allowed to defend myself against those members of DCM who initiate combat against me without a standing loss though...or at the very least, cause those players themselves to lose standing against their own (non-aggresive) NPC corp for acting like pirates while flying under the flag of DCM.
They are flying false colours after all, and that is something that is traditionally frowned upon by pretty much every nation.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#318 - 2017-01-03 20:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Torin Corax wrote:
I do feel I should be allowed to defend myself against those members of DMC [DCM] who initiate combat against me without a standing loss though...or at the very least, cause those players themselves to lose standing against their own (non-aggresive) NPC corp for acting like pirates while flying under the flag of DMC [DCM].
They are flying false colours after all, and that is something that is traditionally frowned upon by pretty much every nation.

Yeah, I agree with that first suggestion.

If you agress a player in DCM legally (eg. they attack you and go suspect, so you defend yourself against them; or they are suspect/criminal and you agress them), you shouldn't lose standings to DCM for defending yourself, or for engaging someone that is already suspect/criminal.

That one change would eliminate my only issue with the current development roadmap in relation to the new NPC AI.
Torin Corax
Game of Roams
#319 - 2017-01-03 20:32:57 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Torin Corax wrote:
I do feel I should be allowed to defend myself against those members of DMC [DCM] who initiate combat against me without a standing loss though...or at the very least, cause those players themselves to lose standing against their own (non-aggresive) NPC corp for acting like pirates while flying under the flag of DMC [DCM].
They are flying false colours after all, and that is something that is traditionally frowned upon by pretty much every nation.

Yeah, I agree with that first suggestion.

If you agress a player in DCM legally (eg. they attack you and go suspect, so you defend yourself against them; or they are suspect/criminal and you agress them) and win, you shouldn't lose standings to DCM for defending yourself, or for killing someone that is already suspect/criminal.

That one change would eliminate my only issue with the current development roadmap in relation to the new NPC AI.


Thanks for the correction, post edited with the correct abbreviation. For some reason I have a problem with that abbreviation, keep getting it wrong.Oops
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#320 - 2017-01-03 20:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajem Hinken
I've read up to page 12, not going to read any farther, but my two cents:

This is both good and bad. Yes, it has some positive effects, but minor flaws in implementation have also made unintended bad side effects.

How the system really should work is you should ONLY lose standing if you kill someone and they don't deserve it. (If they shoot first, you can fill them with as many shells as you want, and it's OK. Same as CONCORD's philosophy. If they don't shoot first or they are not a criminal, then you'd lose standing.)

Seriously, any reasonable person wouldn't be mad if one of their corp's members picked a fight with someone and had gotten beaten up.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.