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Wardecs Need a Revamp

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rahmat mirko
Wolf Pack Aquisition and Consulting
#1 - 2016-12-25 17:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: rahmat mirko
With the addition of alpha clones, many new players have come to Eve and more than a few older players have returned. This has created a field day for high sec wardec corps. They depend on the fact the higher tier players in the corp they wardec are in lowsec with alts to do their hauling or are negative sec stat so they cannot come out and fight. They sit outside of trade hubs and in the mayor routes and pick off new players or haulers which offer them no fight at all. What chance did a week old player who just bought his first cruiser in Jita, and was looking forward to taking it to low sec with the rest of corp mates stand, when he undocks to find 2 instalocking artillery Loki's with out of corp logi waiting there.

Don't get me wrong, this is fine for a while. It is a good learning experience. The problem is when there is no end in sight. As if a week of having all our new recruits relieved of everything they own and quitting the game wasn't bad enough, there is no reason for these wardec corps to ever stop. The corp I am currently in has had a non-mutual wardec against ppl we have no intention of fighting renewed for a 4th week now.

I understand that Eve is about PvP. And I understand that wardecs are a huge part of that. The problem here is non-mutual war decs. If two corps want to fight each other forever and have good fights in high sec, then more power to them. Fight on gents!!! but when a corp that has mostly low sec locked chars tries to grow, these non-mutual wardecs cripple all efforts to recruit and make new players wonder what the point of all this is. So many of our new alphas have quit and gone to play something else. Something where you actually stand a chance. The really terrible part of all this is that just a handful of players in these high sec war dec corps can ruin the experience of hundreds of players.

This is not an isolated incident. I had a corp that I started with my brother. We started recruiting and with in 3 days had a wardec with Jita campers. We shut down our corp, told our new players, "Sorry, the two of us can't keep you safe. Please continue to play and find help and guidance somewhere else."
He moved to a Indy corp in Gallente High sec. They are now under fire and have had their mining fleets completely shut down. I joined a low sec PvP corp. And we are now under fire from 2 different groups of trade hub campers. It's only 2 now, but it was 3 not long ago.

The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.
As already stated by CCP here:

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing

"Attempting to abuse a new players lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain or simply for their harm is prohibited in these solar systems"

I like that rule. Protect new players from older players that know the game while they learn. Make sense. However these never ending, non-mutal wardecs are the same thing if not worse. It turns recruiting and training new players into an exercise in frustration.

What these Highsec wardec corps are doing is not PvP. It is new player grief in its purest from. But there is some room for that. I am in no way saying that wardecs should be removed from the game. There should just be some manner of control to the endless preying on new and smaller corps. Every time another week is renewed of the existing wardecs, or a new one is added by another band of gankers who are looking for anything but a real fight, even I, who have been playing for over 11 years feel like maybe my time would be better spent doing something else.

Thanks to any who have read this far.
Rahmat
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2016-12-25 18:18:41 UTC
rahmat mirko wrote:
with alts to do their hauling


That right there is the solution to the "problem" you think exists.

if you are in a corp that is under wardec, don't fly your wardec character to the trade hubs.

It takes what... a week, week and a half to train up an alt who can at least sit in and move around a ship for you. even without making a dedicated hauler alt.

Rather than get your shiny new cruiser blown to high hell, train up an alt that can sit in a cruiser... takes like a day maybe. hell use an alpha account and you don't even need to pause your current training to do that.

fly to the trade hub in something fast that isn't an easy target, a sub 2 second align time ship is best, but even a shuttle would probably do. buy your cruiser, fit it up, contract it to your valet alt.

use your valet alt to move it to the safest place to do the hand-off. either the ships final destination, or if the final destination is in low-sec should probably do the hand off somewhere in high thats away from where the WT's generally camp. contract the ship back.

Bonus points, if you do the handoff in the system just before the jump into low-sec, you can use your valet alt as a disposable scout to check if the low gate is camped.

If you don't know how to fly safely through high-sec with war targets after you, then your not gonna survive long in low-sec where EVERYONE is after you.

Now I do agree that some of the wardec mechanics could do with some tweaking. the ease of which large corps can keep smaller ones permanently wardecced for practically zero cost is in need of another look at.

but those aren't the mechanics you are talking about, your complaints are with the entire wardec system as a whole, which as a whole, is working as intended, and if you cannot deal with those mechanics then the problem lies with you and not the system.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#3 - 2016-12-25 18:33:54 UTC
This isn't a new thing and has nothing to do with alpha's, newbies, or any other tender hearted little fuzzy creatures out there.
It also has been going on for a very long time. It just was intensified when CCP turned the 'watchlist' into a mutually approved 'buddy list'. At that point the mercs who do the war things for the shiny things were left with a conundrum on their hands. Do they strive endlessly to search the big black for maybe, possibly, who knows it could be a target to shoot at... or do they just wardec anything that looks interesting that flies down a trade pipe?

Unfortunately., when they made this change they did not put any kind of mechanic in place to compensate for savagely nut-punching the invaluable tool of the locator agent, which most mercenaries who were worthy of the name employed extensively when it came to the process of hunting their potential targets.

TL;DR : You are the victim of the law of unintended consequences. suck it up, buttercup.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#4 - 2016-12-25 18:34:14 UTC
rahmat mirko wrote:
With the addition of alpha clones, many new players have come to Eve and more than a few older players have returned. This has created a field day for high sec wardec corps. They depend on the fact the higher tier players in the corp they wardec are in lowsec with alts to do their hauling or are negative sec stat so they cannot come out and fight. They sit outside of trade hubs and in the mayor routes and pick off new players or haulers which offer them no fight at all. What chance did a week old player who just bought his first cruiser in Jita, and was looking forward to taking it to low sec with the rest of corp mates stand, when he undocks to find 2 instalocking artillery Loki's with out of corp logi waiting there.

Question is, if you know all this, why did they even have to go to Jita and get their cruisers there, instead of the corp doing it for them with neutral hauler alts? I gather that you would be able to protect those assets once they reach lowsec.

Remove standings and insurance.
Spacing Cowboy
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2016-12-25 18:42:19 UTC
A ban for players to fly in highsec / tradehubs
and have your corp ( on corp contract ) arange logistics for them and pre fit ships.

One older player his freigter / jf alt can haul a crapload of newbro's stuff to a nice
defended-protected area.

Yes, im all for protecting the new-bro's , but some *efford* from experienced players
can make there life so much more easy.

No worries, the wardec-campers will still get there fill of JF kills who forget allll about wardec's
and highsec :)
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#6 - 2016-12-25 18:53:10 UTC
rahmat mirko wrote:
With the addition of alpha clones, many new players have come to Eve and more than a few older players have returned. This has created a field day for high sec wardec corps. They depend on the fact the higher tier players in the corp they wardec are in lowsec with alts to do their hauling or are negative sec stat so they cannot come out and fight. They sit outside of trade hubs and in the mayor routes and pick off new players or haulers which offer them no fight at all. What chance did a week old player who just bought his first cruiser in Jita, and was looking forward to taking it to low sec with the rest of corp mates stand, when he undocks to find 2 instalocking artillery Loki's with out of corp logi waiting there.

Don't get me wrong, this is fine for a while. It is a good learning experience. The problem is when there is no end in sight. As if a week of having all our new recruits relieved of everything they own and quitting the game wasn't bad enough, there is no reason for these wardec corps to ever stop. The corp I am currently in has had a non-mutual wardec against ppl we have no intention of fighting renewed for a 4th week now.

I understand that Eve is about PvP. And I understand that wardecs are a huge part of that. The problem here is non-mutual war decs. If two corps want to fight each other forever and have good fights in high sec, then more power to them. Fight on gents!!! but when a corp that has mostly low sec locked chars tries to grow, these non-mutual wardecs cripple all efforts to recruit and make new players wonder what the point of all this is. So many of our new alphas have quit and gone to play something else. Something where you actually stand a chance. The really terrible part of all this is that just a handful of players in these high sec war dec corps can ruin the experience of hundreds of players.

This is not an isolated incident. I had a corp that I started with my brother. We started recruiting and with in 3 days had a wardec with Jita campers. We shut down our corp, told our new players, "Sorry, the two of us can't keep you safe. Please continue to play and find help and guidance somewhere else."
He moved to a Indy corp in Gallente High sec. They are now under fire and have had their mining fleets completely shut down. I joined a low sec PvP corp. And we are now under fire from 2 different groups of trade hub campers. It's only 2 now, but it was 3 not long ago.

The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.
As already stated by CCP here:

https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203209712-Rookie-Griefing

"Attempting to abuse a new players lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain or simply for their harm is prohibited in these solar systems"

I like that rule. Protect new players from older players that know the game while they learn. Make sense. However these never ending, non-mutal wardecs are the same thing if not worse. It turns recruiting and training new players into an exercise in frustration.

What these Highsec wardec corps are doing is not PvP. It is new player grief in its purest from. But there is some room for that. I am in no way saying that wardecs should be removed from the game. There should just be some manner of control to the endless preying on new and smaller corps. Every time another week is renewed of the existing wardecs, or a new one is added by another band of gankers who are looking for anything but a real fight, even I, who have been playing for over 11 years feel like maybe my time would be better spent doing something else.

Thanks to any who have read this far.
Rahmat



Utter rubbish. As ccp falcon has said anyone should be able to war dec anyone any time for whatever reason. War dec corps don't in the main go after new bros.

If you want to focus on a problem focus on ganking freighters.
Bertok Francis
1 Royal Fleet Corps
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2016-12-25 18:54:41 UTC
I am very new but there is only one big problem I have there; out of corp logi. I am not up on the mechanics but I assume if you shoot those logi ships you get concorded? That sounds pretty broken to me. Maybe make it so that if you give logi support to someone who is being engaged by or is engaging a war target then the logi ship gets hit by concord: it seems a little ridiculous to let people interfere with fights and have no consequences to themselves.
Vigirr
#8 - 2016-12-25 19:03:45 UTC
OP, you should be ashamed of yourself for making this thread.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#9 - 2016-12-25 19:06:58 UTC
Natural CloneKiller wrote:

If you want to focus on a problem focus on ganking freighters.


pfffffff lololololol

@OP
HTFU or GTFO

oh yeah, and merry Christmas. Big smile
Valkin Mordirc
#10 - 2016-12-25 19:09:51 UTC
Quote:
With the addition of alpha clones, many new players have come to Eve and more than a few older players have returned. This has created a field day for high sec wardec corps. They depend on the fact the higher tier players in the corp they wardec are in lowsec with alts to do their hauling or are negative sec stat so they cannot come out and fight. They sit outside of trade hubs and in the mayor routes and pick off new players or haulers which offer them no fight at all. What chance did a week old player who just bought his first cruiser in Jita, and was looking forward to taking it to low sec with the rest of corp mates stand, when he undocks to find 2 instalocking artillery Loki's with out of corp logi waiting there.



Yes. Everybody is having a field day when the peak server population is now around 40-50k instead of 30k.

As for the rest of your paragraph. It's up to the corp that the newbro is in, to teach the newbro how to avoid gate camps/station camps. The Cloak+MWD trick will bypass all gate camps if done right. It's YOUR corps problem if your newbros are ill informed. Not the games.

Have somebody make insta undock and dock's on trade hubs. Have your corp put up bulletins explaining how to avoid gate camp with the cloak+MWD. Make perches on major trade lines. It's not hard to do.


Quote:
Don't get me wrong, this is fine for a while. It is a good learning experience. The problem is when there is no end in sight. As if a week of having all our new recruits relieved of everything they own and quitting the game wasn't bad enough, there is no reason for these wardec corps to ever stop. The corp I am currently in has had a non-mutual wardec against ppl we have no intention of fighting renewed for a 4th week now.


So your corps is make no effort to combat your aggressor? SO basically you are asking CCP to do it for you because :effort: is to much? What if somebody comes in to your Lowsec HQ and starts shooting your POS'es/POCO's/Citadels? Someone bigger than you like Shadow Cartel? What are you going to then? Come back and whine again that it's not fair a bigger entity is bullying you and your new bro's?

Quote:

This is not an isolated incident. I had a corp that I started with my brother. We started recruiting and with in 3 days had a wardec with Jita campers. We shut down our corp, told our new players, "Sorry, the two of us can't keep you safe. Please continue to play and find help and guidance somewhere else."
He moved to a Indy corp in Gallente High sec. They are now under fire and have had their mining fleets completely shut down. I joined a low sec PvP corp. And we are now under fire from 2 different groups of trade hub campers. It's only 2 now, but it was 3 not long ago.


Sounds like you made a corp and took on responsibilities you were not able to handle because you were new and you have ****** leadership skills and joined a corp led by someone with the same ability as you.


Quote:
The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.
As already stated by CCP here:


What's your definition of survives? THe war ends? What do he attacks get out of winning? Sounds like an unbalanced system you are trying to put out based solely on the "THINK OF NEWBIES" Ignoring completely that your corp isn't a newbie corp.


In fact that's your entire argument. Think of the new players, but implement a system that makes everyone else life easier so we don't have think a little bit hard on how to do X amount of things. 
#DeleteTheWeak
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#11 - 2016-12-25 19:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Bertok Francis wrote:
I am very new but there is only one big problem I have there; out of corp logi. I am not up on the mechanics but I assume if you shoot those logi ships you get concorded? That sounds pretty broken to me. Maybe make it so that if you give logi support to someone who is being engaged by or is engaging a war target then the logi ship gets hit by concord: it seems a little ridiculous to let people interfere with fights and have no consequences to themselves.


IIRC if a logi assists someone at war they temporarily can be shot for a short timer. Neutral logi works both ways though.



While highsec wars are largely a mug's game - it saddens me that so often sizeable corps make no effort to defend themselves, etc. some people I used to work with IRL were in a ~80 player indy corp with most of them active and were decced and had their POSes wiped out 2-3 times in the space of a couple of months before they decided to fight back - at which point the hostiles turned tail, ran and dropped dec without a shot fired when jumping into a 30+ man armageddon fleet lol. They then moved to WH space to avoid future decs and my then corp (unknown to me) burnt their wormhole to the ground :S
Wanda Fayne
#12 - 2016-12-25 20:19:17 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Bertok Francis wrote:
I am very new but there is only one big problem I have there; out of corp logi. I am not up on the mechanics but I assume if you shoot those logi ships you get concorded? That sounds pretty broken to me. Maybe make it so that if you give logi support to someone who is being engaged by or is engaging a war target then the logi ship gets hit by concord: it seems a little ridiculous to let people interfere with fights and have no consequences to themselves.


IIRC if a logi assists someone at war they temporarily can be shot for a short timer. Neutral logi works both ways though.



While highsec wars are largely a mug's game - it saddens me that so often sizeable corps make no effort to defend themselves, etc. some people I used to work with IRL were in a ~80 player indy corp with most of them active and were decced and had their POSes wiped out 2-3 times in the space of a couple of months before they decided to fight back - at which point the hostiles turned tail, ran and dropped dec without a shot fired when jumping into a 30+ man armageddon fleet lol. They then moved to WH space to avoid future decs and my then corp (unknown to me) burnt their wormhole to the ground :S


Shooting some peoples' neutrals will get you wardecced in return. It isn't concord you need to worry aboutBlink

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Soloman Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-12-25 21:00:19 UTC
The stations should charge folks per hour for asylum. Maybe they would un-dock if that were the case.

Have the ISK per hour based off size of corp.

“The cold stars spun to the ancient rhythm, the august march of an everlasting symphony. They are old, the stars, and their memory is long.” -Rick Yancey
Kami Lincoln
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2016-12-25 21:10:39 UTC
I have a corp of about 30 players who don't log on anymore because of months of blanket dec'ers. Once CCP starts losing all the subs they gained from the F2P move they'll change things. But it'll be too late then. But at least the pvp griefers won't have their gameplay disrupted. That would be a tragedy.
Soloman Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2016-12-25 21:14:43 UTC
Kami Lincoln wrote:
I have a corp of about 30 players who don't log on anymore because of months of blanket dec'ers. Once CCP starts losing all the subs they gained from the F2P move they'll change things. But it'll be too late then. But at least the pvp griefers won't have their gameplay disrupted. That would be a tragedy.


Killmails are just a form of communication...

“The cold stars spun to the ancient rhythm, the august march of an everlasting symphony. They are old, the stars, and their memory is long.” -Rick Yancey
Vigirr
#16 - 2016-12-25 21:22:29 UTC
Kami Lincoln wrote:
I have a corp of about 30 players who don't log on anymore because of months of blanket dec'ers. Once CCP starts losing all the subs they gained from the F2P move they'll change things. But it'll be too late then. But at least the pvp griefers won't have their gameplay disrupted. That would be a tragedy.


If you were a good CEO you'd know how to handle a wardec, know how to teach and empower your newbies and would have picked people with braincells capable of doing teamwork.

So the problem isn't the wardec, it's you not being good enough to deal with it.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#17 - 2016-12-25 21:22:54 UTC
James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2016-12-25 21:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: James Shackleton Caird
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
As for the rest of your paragraph. It's up to the corp that the newbro is in, to teach the newbro how to avoid gate camps/station camps. The Cloak+MWD trick will bypass all gate camps if done right. It's YOUR corps problem if your newbros are ill informed. Not the games.


Which does raise a different issue, that new players aren't pointed at corps in any sort of way, that they're just as likely to assume it's like player corps/guilds in some other games, that they get mass evemails sent to people in rookie help (I've received 6 so far from the same corp) or blind invites, which means too many new players will join terrible corps that do nothing to help, that don't tell them about war targets, and that will mean some players leave.

The solution obviously isn't the OP's one that wants lazy corps like his to get all the benefits of extra members with none of the effort of helping them. But I think there could be more done to point new players at the recruitment forums or stuff.

rahmat mirko wrote:
The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.


That may be the most absurd suggestion I've seen this month. A corp like yours that is too scared to fight back in a war, too lazy to help out its newbros, pays a token amount once every 5 weeks to have a friend's corp declare a non-mutual war, and they get perpetual immunity to actual wardecs?

Your corp info advertises:

Quote:
Whether you just started playing EVE or you're just getting into PVP, Solar.Eclipse. has the knowledge to train you, the resources to get you in a ship, and the skills to get it to explode in a spectacular fashion.


and offers

Quote:
Free ships! (Yes, we have that kind of money)
Easy to use, fast, dedicated Jump Freight


and takes 10% tax from all the new players silly enough to believe you. 150 players in just over a month, so I assume you're spamming hard to get people in.

Yet these great players leading the corp can't manage something as simple as bringing a few ships to low, nor informing new players that there's a war on and how to cope?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2016-12-25 21:44:23 UTC
ok , serious post (blame the protestant whisky).

if ye cant defend yer newbros or facilitate them doing so themselves,
you do not deserve to have them.

from the support page :
Constant War Declarations

War Declarations are a risk that every player corporation has to face and they are under no circumstances considered harassment. Wars in general can be completely avoided by remaining in an NPC corporation.

HTFU buttercup and look after your newbros.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Kami Lincoln
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-12-25 21:48:02 UTC
James Shackleton Caird wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
As for the rest of your paragraph. It's up to the corp that the newbro is in, to teach the newbro how to avoid gate camps/station camps. The Cloak+MWD trick will bypass all gate camps if done right. It's YOUR corps problem if your newbros are ill informed. Not the games.


Which does raise a different issue, that new players aren't pointed at corps in any sort of way, that they're just as likely to assume it's like player corps/guilds in some other games, that they get mass evemails sent to people in rookie help (I've received 6 so far from the same corp) or blind invites, which means too many new players will join terrible corps that do nothing to help, that don't tell them about war targets, and that will mean some players leave.

The solution obviously isn't the OP's one that wants lazy corps like his to get all the benefits of extra members with none of the effort of helping them. But I think there could be more done to point new players at the recruitment forums or stuff.

rahmat mirko wrote:
The funny thing is that the solution is so simple. Any corp that survives a non-mutual wardec can be put on a cool down were they cannot be wardeced again for a month. newer corps can see their week in hell as a learning experience and have a month to prepare before they become game again. Older corps know that every fifth week they might come under fire and have that month to get their isk up in high sec and then head back to low for a week. This might actually pull some of these weardecers into low sec and fight ppl that actually want to fight back for a change.


That may be the most absurd suggestion I've seen this month. A corp like yours that is too scared to fight back in a war, too lazy to help out its newbros, pays a token amount once every 5 weeks to have a friend's corp declare a non-mutual war, and they get perpetual immunity to actual wardecs?


Many smaller corps don't have the capability to fight back against professional griefers. Many of us have something called "real life" and "work" so are unable to all be on to defend everyone in the corp from wartargets who love to target the newest players who inevitably fail to understand the half dozen EVE mails informing them of how the war dec system works and how to avoid becoming another statistic on our killboard. And even when you do manage to get a group of people together to fight these griefers, they hide in stations until people get bored and log.

High sec blanket wars are the cancer eating this game. Essentially if you chose not to instantly jump into low and null sec pvp and instead subscribe to this games selling point of being anything you want to be, chances are you'll be griefed out of the game or bored to tears and inevitably quit the game in the ever increasing npc corporations. You can mock my points and insist how this game is supposed to be a "pvp game only" but it's just plain dumb to ignore the primary cause this game as an form of entertainment has a higher turnover rate than a fast food chain.
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