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Mission running phantasm - feedback wanted

Author
James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2016-12-24 02:48:03 UTC
Posted this is ships & modules, no response yet. But see more than a few pve fitting posts here, too. So reposting here in hopes of some advice/feedback.


I've asked santa for something new & spiky this year, and now I have to fit it. It's for running missions and some combat sites.

Here's the first attempt, any feedback is appreciated.

[Phantasm, **Simulated Phantasm]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Medium Cap Battery II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Core Probe Launcher I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II


Hobgoblin I x3

Sisters Core Scanner Probe x16
Scorch M x6


The vital stats:
cap stable
395 dps total, lasers do 122 each at 21km optimal, 27km falloff
tracking is 32.14 (whatever that means. I understood rad/s. How do I get a sensible answer out of this new tracking number?)
19.3k ehp
61hp/s from shield repper, which is 125 ehp/s facing thermal, 170 for EM/kinetic, 204 explosive
velocity is ~1000m/s
CPU has 2.5 to spare, powergrid has ~230 spare.

probe launcher is mostly there due to having a spare slot and nothing else to put there. Can't use the probe launcher II as I'm 2.5 cpu short. I could dump it, switch the EM ward to a 2nd adaptive invuln, and get more ehp (20.7k), more ehp/s (136 EM-279 explosive) but have cap deplete in a little over 5 min. T2 drones are at least 6 weeks away due to other priorities.

I have controlled bursts and cap emission systems only trained to 4, once they reach 5 I should be able to switch the rigs a bit and/or swap one of the low/mid slots from capacitor to tank/dps. Not sure what though.

Good/average/terrible fit? OK for running L3 missions? ok for running what level DED sites? Do I need to be scared of NPC frigates with the 20km optimal and medium sized guns?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#2 - 2016-12-24 14:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Before I start, never flown a Phantasm so this is all theory crafting and ideas based on using EvE HQ fit tool.

For a mission ship cap stability with everything running is usually a waste of slots that could be used for something else. As long as you are cap stable with everything but the shield booster running that should be all you need.

EHP is essentially worthless as a measure of tanking effectiveness for a mission ship, your tank dps amount is far more critical.

No you do not need to be scared of the frigates bit you do need to fit to handle them and to me that means you will need some tracking help as medium turrets struggle to hit frigates. Related to this is your drones, since you can only have 3 of them make sure you are using mission specific based on damage type, and be sure to work training for T2 drones into your plan they will make a difference.

One train of thought here is to replace one of the cap rigs with a T1 variant and replace the Cap safeguard with something to boost tracking, optimal or falloff range. Other options
Purger to increase shield recharge rate so you use the booster less.
Operational solidifier to decrease the cycle time of the booster.

Another idea would be to replace the capacitor power relay with a tracking enhancer II however that would require replacing the cap battery with a second Cap recharger because CPU.

Changing hardeners based on the NPC you are fighting would gain tank compared to running the invul and EM for every mission.

Final thought is your shield booster is one place you may want to consider running a deadspace medium like the the Pithum C Type. Drops tank about 30 dps compared to your large T2 but it would probably triple the amount of time you could run it which in a general sense is better for missions.

EvE Survial is an excellent resource for mission runners.
James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-12-24 18:25:01 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Before I start, never flown a Phantasm so this is all theory crafting and ideas based on using EvE HQ fit tool.

For a mission ship cap stability with everything running is usually a waste of slots that could be used for something else. As long as you are cap stable with everything but the shield booster running that should be all you need.

EHP is essentially worthless as a measure of tanking effectiveness for a mission ship, your tank dps amount is far more critical.


Makes sense.

Quote:
No you do not need to be scared of the frigates bit you do need to fit to handle them and to me that means you will need some tracking help as medium turrets struggle to hit frigates. Related to this is your drones, since you can only have 3 of them make sure you are using mission specific based on damage type, and be sure to work training for T2 drones into your plan they will make a difference.


Also makes sense, t2 drones are on the medium term list, but I have higher priorities in the next month. Don't actually appear to be many L3 missions with frigates, at least I didn't find any with a quick random sample of the link you posted.

Quote:
One train of thought here is to replace one of the cap rigs with a T1 variant and replace the Cap safeguard with something to boost tracking, optimal or falloff range. Other options
Purger to increase shield recharge rate so you use the booster less.
Operational solidifier to decrease the cycle time of the booster.

Another idea would be to replace the capacitor power relay with a tracking enhancer II however that would require replacing the cap battery with a second Cap recharger because CPU.

Changing hardeners based on the NPC you are fighting would gain tank compared to running the invul and EM for every mission.

Final thought is your shield booster is one place you may want to consider running a deadspace medium like the the Pithum C Type. Drops tank about 30 dps compared to your large T2 but it would probably triple the amount of time you could run it which in a general sense is better for missions.

EvE Survial is an excellent resource for mission runners.


Invested in some cheap boosters, upped the budget from ~170 mill to 280 mill. I don't think the 100 million shield booster makes me that much of a juicy target?

[Phantasm, **Simulated Phantasm]
Power Diagnostic System II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
10MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Medium Cap Battery II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Core Probe Launcher I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin I x3

Sisters Core Scanner Probe x8
Scorch M x3

Practically cap stable even with the booster (16 minutes), tracking is 32, 92.5 hp/s with 64% resists, so 257 ehp/s

Or if I add a tracking computer, I get

[Phantasm, ***Simulated Phantasm]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Gist X-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
10MN Afterburner II
Tracking Computer II
Medium Cap Battery II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Core Probe Launcher I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin I x3

Sisters Core Scanner Probe x8
Tracking Speed Script
Scorch M x3

tracking upped to 42, cap stable at 76% without booster, runs 4 minutes with everything, so I assume about 3 minutes from 76%. Practically cap stable with the AB off (22 minutes), also cap stable with 2 guns switched off. tank drops to 82.3 with same resists, 228 ehp/s.

If I take that, drop to a medium pithum c-type, switch a capacitor rig to a tracking rig, then I get tracking up to 49, stable at 70% without booster, 6 minutes with, but the tank is now 48.4, 134 ehp. Price tag also drops to 200 mill. I don't think I like that big drop in tank though.

Thanks for the advice. I think I really need to get out there and run a few missions, get an idea of just what the incoming dmage will be, and just what the angular velocity the npc frigates are likely to get up to.

Got 2 days to decide, still waiting to be able to use the AB 2 and invuln 2. Afterburner to 4 should also mean the cap lasts a little longer. Switching afterburner from AB2 to the monopropellant also ups the cap from 4 minutes to 5.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#4 - 2016-12-24 18:29:49 UTC
3 cap modules and 3 cap rigs for a total of 6 slots used for cap.

That should be a big indicator that the fit is off balance, or the ship itself is probably not the best ship for the job.

As mentioned above ^^^ you don't have to be cap stable to be safe.

This is def not a level IV mission ship, so I assume you are doing level III's with it.
I wouldn't discourage a guy doing his own thing, in his ship, in his game, BUT, If you're doing missions for ISK or to grind up standings, there are better ships to mission in.
James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2016-12-24 18:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: James Shackleton Caird
RavenPaine wrote:
3 cap modules and 3 cap rigs for a total of 6 slots used for cap.

That should be a big indicator that the fit is off balance, or the ship itself is probably not the best ship for the job.

As mentioned above ^^^ you don't have to be cap stable to be safe.

This is def not a level IV mission ship, so I assume you are doing level III's with it.
I wouldn't discourage a guy doing his own thing, in his ship, in his game, BUT, If you're doing missions for ISK or to grind up standings, there are better ships to mission in.


I don't expect to do level 4s yet, only 3s. Doing it for fun, doing it because the ship looks awesome, don't mind if it's not quite as good as a different ship. Out of curiosity, what ship would you suggest? I have ok skills for either armour or shield, but would need to use lasers as my skills for other guns are rubbish. I think I'll tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to cap, at least until I get a better idea of how it will go, as I've never done any pve combat past L2s, and that was a few years ago when I last played. So unsure of what the incoming damage will be, what sort of DPS I will need, how long fights are likely to last. Prefer to be safer than faster, at least for now. Will get more of an idea once I jump into it and run a few, then I can adjust damage up a bit and cap down a bit, or whatever.

I'm also missing controlled bursts 5 and capacitor emission systems 5, getting them trained should also make me more comfortable swapping some cap stuff for some damage/tank stuff.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#6 - 2016-12-24 21:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Haven't flown the phantasm myself yet, though I think I'd like to give it a go for funsies since I finally got T2 medium turrets trained, but you need to look at what the role bonuses of the ship are and work a fit around that.

The biggest thing the phantasm has going for it is the huge AB bonus it gets. This translates into insane tanking ability. It has it's downsides with tracking (but gets a handy tracking bonus as well) so that should be the primary thing you need to focus on. The second biggest advantage it has is it only uses 3 turrets. This means you use a lot less cap on guns. Also any gun rigs you fit will have a smaller impact.

Build the ship in stages basically. There are modules that need to be perma running and thus you need cap to run those modules effectively permanently. Shield booster is not on of them, but the AB is, that's your primary strength. You obviously need to perma run the guns as well, or be able to. In the phantasm you're going to be speed tanking, this means you will not need to use your shield booster much, if at all. Putting a large shield booster, or a super expensive one, is a huge waste in my opinion. A pith C-type Medium should be more than enough. You're going to be bursting it for the most part, and that's where piths have the advantage over giths since they boost more at once than the giths.

Something else to keep in mind is that you will want to mostly fight either Sansha or perhaps Serpentis as you are limited in your damage type. If you are planning on missioning in gurista or worse, angel space you are going to have a tough time applying good damage. As such you do have a bit of a EM/Therm hole.

So lets start by slotting in the essentials: 10mn afterburner (a faction / DED space AB would be a very nice investment), 3 Heavy pulse lasers, 3 heat sinks (faction if you want to splurge) and a PDS II and the tanking essentials; EM hardener, Thermal hardener and an EM rig. The cap is just about cap stable with all Vs using Scorch and IN MF but not using Conflag. Still it probably wont be cap stable with your skills so lets add a large cap battery.

Generally cap batteries are kinda meh *except* on cruiser sized ships using large batteries because of how low the cap pool is and how high the cap recharge is on them. On BCs the cap pool is a lot larger so a battery doesn't increase it by as much so the recharge doesn't go as nuts as it does on a Cruiser. And because we aren't taking a large shield booster we have PG to spare.

Suddenly we have cap coming out of our ears. Adding a medium pith c-type drops our cap stability again although you will not be running it all the time at all. You're going at 1273-ish m/s you should be speed/sig tanking like a boss. so now we have two rig slots, a high, medium and low slot open. I'd recommend tracking for the most part so you can make the most of using conflag/MF at +- 8km where you will be orbiting. You can run a DCII at first if you want to get a feel for the ship but replacing it with a TE will help damage application. So we add a TC with tracking script and TE. You might run into fitting issues depending on skills so for rigs take whatever will fit. a Metastasis Adjuster will give you some tracking but increase PG cost of your guns. A collision accelerator will boost your dps a tiny bit. If you don't have the PG for it fit a shield rig, one that increase the amount of shields boosted per cycle.

But again haven't flown one myself but that's how I'd put it together. The DPS is kinda meh (I'd use faction heat sinks) but the speed combined with it's sig is pretty hilarious. Don't try to make the ship into something it's not, embrace it's unique quirks and fit it to it's strengths.

ps. I might be using an old version of EFT, not sure if there's been any changes but here's the fit:

[Phantasm, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Power Diagnostic System II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
EM Ward Field II
Thermal Dissipation Field II
Large Cap Battery II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Energy Metastasis Adjuster I

Hobgoblin II x3

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2016-12-24 21:47:44 UTC
Medium beams are your friend.

[Phantasm, L3]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Pithum C-Type Thermal Dissipation Amplifier
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[Empty High slot]

Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Rigs are kind of to taste. Whole thing looks expensive but runs less than 200m including the hull. 553 at 20.7+14.1 (IN multi) or 415 at 36.2+14.1 (IN UV). Tracking bonus means that shouldn't be an issue.

Tanks 170ish against BR or Sansha. Tweaking for Serpentis should be possible.

Yeah. That's what I'd do.
Orlacc
#8 - 2016-12-24 22:29:04 UTC
I am using this as we speak for L3s just cuz I love the way it looks:

[Phantasm, Urchin]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner I
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
EM Ward Amplifier I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Drone Link Augmentor I

Medium Energy Burst Aerator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x3

Imperial Navy Multifrequency M x6
Scorch M x6
Conflagration M x6

Easy peezy

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2016-12-25 00:27:56 UTC
Thanks. Going to bed shortly, but will have a play with those suggestions later.

Was thinking to mostly do missions in amarr space, pretty sure that's where I have level 3s available.

Having read the last couple of posts, I think my biggest misconception might be thinking I wanted to stay at range, instead of get up close and speed tank. Mostly because I'm in mindset of cruiser is going to be facing frigs and destroyers. But if level 3s are mostly cruisers & BCs, then using short-range ammo, hitting harder and speed tanking makes more sense. So I'll try and readjust in light of that.

Anize Oramara your methodology makes sense to me, thanks for the explanation. It's kind of similar to how I came up with what I posted, except I was starting from different axioms with different priorities, so got different end result.
Orlacc
#10 - 2016-12-25 01:29:53 UTC
James Shackleton Caird wrote:
Thanks. Going to bed shortly, but will have a play with those suggestions later.

Was thinking to mostly do missions in amarr space, pretty sure that's where I have level 3s available.

Having read the last couple of posts, I think my biggest misconception might be thinking I wanted to stay at range, instead of get up close and speed tank. Mostly because I'm in mindset of cruiser is going to be facing frigs and destroyers. But if level 3s are mostly cruisers & BCs, then using short-range ammo, hitting harder and speed tanking makes more sense. So I'll try and readjust in light of that.

Anize Oramara your methodology makes sense to me, thanks for the explanation. It's kind of similar to how I came up with what I posted, except I was starting from different axioms with different priorities, so got different end result.



Remember, your drones will eat frigs.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#11 - 2016-12-25 06:43:40 UTC
The fun thing about the Phantasm is that you're going to be going at like 1200 m/s. You can just pull range on frigs and blap them as they'll be at 0 transversal.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

James Shackleton Caird
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-12-25 17:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: James Shackleton Caird
Have taken advice on board, fiddled a bit, and will go with this, at least to start with. Under 200 mill isk, 1100m/s, 460 dps at 9.3km optimal + 15km falloff, 367 dps at 26km opt + 32 km falloff, or 29 + 37 with range script. Plus 28 dps from the drones. Don't have the powergrid for 2 x laser rigs. 180hp/s omni-tank, 220 ehp for EM. 65% cap stable without booster, 4:43 cap with everything, and takes about 50 seconds to get shield from empty to full.

Will see how this goes, then think about adjusting for more tracking instead of damage control, or adding faction/deadspace gear.



[Phantasm, *Phantasm take 4]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN Afterburner II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Cap Battery II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Core Probe Launcher I

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I



Sisters Core Scanner Probe x8
Tracking Speed Script x1
Scorch M x3
Imperial Navy Multifrequency M x3
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#13 - 2016-12-25 18:34:58 UTC
For level 3s in a shiny ship and decent skills your guns are your tank. With high dps and range most enemies will be dead before you ever take damage. I ran some lv3s in a proteus the other night and I used the armor rep on one mission.

Also I wouldn't really say you will speed tanking, more of you can use your speed to control your position and transversal since you will be faster than almost everything you see in lv3s. If you are going at full speed all the time you are probably not going to be hitting well either because of transversal or range. You can always use your speed to pull range or traversal if you need to though.

This is what I threw together, pretty similar to most of the other fits, just a bit less tank and I threw a sensor booster on instead of a second hardener. As I said earlier guns are your tank so some extra scan res is very useful to lock up new spawns quickly. Also allows you to lock frigs before they start moving too much to instantly blap at range.

[Phantasm, beams]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Power Diagnostic System II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
[empty high slot]

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x3

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Nikea Tiber
Backwater Enterprises RD
#14 - 2016-12-30 00:17:19 UTC
Pulses suck for blitzing L3s, even with the AB bonus you spend too much time getting into range. Beams have more dps, anyhow. The phantasm is pretty easy to fit; 3x heatsinks, 2x TE, or a TE and a nano. Deadspace AB, some variety of LSB, a large cap battery, two rat-specific shield hardeners, and either a web or TC in the spare mid. I feel the TC is generally a bit more useful since you want to pop rats before they get into web range. Don't sweat fitting the utility high slot for pve.
Don't worry about cap stability; if you are flying correctly you won't take much damage from the rats and will rarely have to pulse your LSB.

my other nano is a polycarb

Kethen T'val
Dontopiax Inc.
#15 - 2016-12-30 08:58:45 UTC
Like way to few have already said. No reason not to use Beams here. 550 DPS at 20km optimal. 610 DPS with drones. Why not?