Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I noticed ccp was looking for ideas for their upcoming AI features, which have started making an appearance in the form of the mining fleets. I also noticed how they like to talk about the advanced combat AI of the defense fleet that warps in to defend the mining fleet when it is attacked.


How about going to the next level, and making some real advanced combat AI? An NPC that challenges you to a duel, and then proceeds to use everything and anything against you to win. It instantly knows your fit and ship weaknesses, and uses them against you. It's capable of defending against cheap tactics like using a station to block orbit paths, as well as is able to use those same tactics against you.


These guys will show in a hi-sec system, and demand a duel in local, as well as tell people their location. Thie ship will also be appropriately labeled. They will only accept duels from ships of the same class. It would also be cool if they tried to convo you after the duel to say gf, and maybe even comment about the tactics they used to win. They could also convo you to tell you you're using the wrong kind of ship to duel them if you try, to explain why they wont take the duel request.


When I say "real advanced combat AI," I'm talking about learning AI technology. This kind of tech has made its way into quite a few games now and makes for some interesting, engaging gameplay that can have emergent elements. Right now, the main method of adding content to games is to create some content and add it as kind of a static ride that can be ridden repeatedly, but is more or less the same every time, and after a while, every permutation is discovered and exploited to be ridden mindlessly as a means to and end, rather than be the end itself. There is an initial "This is cool" factor, but grows stale quickly, thus prompting the addition of more and more rides. What I am proposing is creating some longetivity to those rides.

is there a problem with people farming this? they show up in random systems with different fits so it could be difficult to farm anyway

Tell me how this amazing logic justifies the addition of anything ever

How this is not like burners:
Improved AI makes the npcs use on-the-fly tactics rather than bringing a set fit and sticking to a certain, predictable ruleset.

These NPC's appear randomly and are available to all, not just those with the sec status to accept lv4 missions, and omega clones to bring the required equipment. I also said there is nothing wrong with farming. That is just a question of balance and is another argument entirely.

They don't automatically bring the best officer module fit in the best TII ship and have stats limited to that of a player.

They only accept duel requests from players with the same ship class, no TI vs TII, etc.




The last point is just a "It would be cool" thing, Like the way bots talk in dota and so on. I intended this NPC type to have the side effect of being a good way of teaching PvP nuances. Observe I said they could comment about the tactics they used to win, and that they would explain why they wouldn't take the duel request.

"Giaz! Giaz!

I want an NPC that talks and acts like a player but isn't a player and rewards my efforts because I am a player!"



In all seriousness...
NPC AI, in any form, follows some kind of predictable pattern. This is actually the limitation of computers and code in general.

Even if you allow for NPCs to choose the most optimized fit for certain circumstances, players will quickly catch on and document it... allowing future players to prepare accordingly.

And if you make it so that NPCs choose fits that directly counter a player's ship fits then you will have a situation where "stats matter" and effectively lock out players who do not have the best and highest stats possible (to overcome the NPC's inherent advantage).
This means that only older, richer, and more experienced players will benefit.



In general, when it comes to PvP in EVE... NPCs really have nothing to teach players.

Part of being "good" at PvP involves knowing ship class strengths / weaknesses, memorizing potential ship fits, knowing how to fit your own ship for certain tactics, being able to choose targets that you can actually fight, using said tactics properly, .
If you choose poorly in any of the above, you lose. Period.

NPCs can't teach this as they are quite static and, more or less, predictable.


Probably the biggest point I have against this is that players should be learning PvP from other player and not NPCs.
Interaction is what drives the game and retains players.
If anything... there should be less NPCs and more mechanics that force players to talk with other players.

The first part is false. Advanced AI is capable of being quite intelligent. What you have stated is simply not true.


I disagree with your second part. In fact, I believe that NPCs are especially suited to a game like eve, where ship movements are like an AI's movement within themselves. There's not nearly as much twitch reaction and micro movement tactics as in other games, eve fights at a normal level consist of orders rather than direct control - telling the ship to do something and have it happen, so long as conditions X, Y and Z are met.

You've also contradicted yourself in saying that pvp involves knowing certain things. If that's all there is to it, then assuming maximum knowledge of mechanics, every single fight, assuming perfect execution, will follow to its logical conclusion, and is thus by definition predictable. (This is largely true in eve, it is no secret this game has a roch paper scissors element to it, however a skilled player can tilt the fight in thier favour). This is why i think duelist AI will be well suited to this game, to help teach these mechanics and provide a fun challenge.

I agree a lot with your last point. however, I believe we can have both. do you think that the fact there are bots to practice 1v1 on in guild wars reduces player numbers? I most certainly don't. I fact I believe these duelist AI will help to increase the number of players willing to move out of hisec and seek pvp with other players.

Hey so this reminds me of a comment I hear from several game developers, over and over. "We only had ______ weeks to work on the game so the gameplay was very limited."

There was also a GDC 2016 presentation where multiplayer games were said to be more successful than single player ( http://i.imgur.com/yBfiUsA.png ) link VP of Games at Amazon

Watching that video made me realize multiplayer wasn't just proven as a thing people enjoy. It's also a very perfect way to add gameplay and RI (Real Intelligence. Coined by me right now to refer to human beings in place of AI in video games).

What you're suggesting is basic gameplay, and additional gameplay. It's a good idea but the problem with something like a static scripted AI is the replayability. It gets old. It can also take a while to develop / program / integrate. The return on that effort is not very high.

Instead what you could do is give players a reason to either attack or defend an NPC mining fleet. Perhaps issue it as a mission objective from an agent. The main goal would be getting two players to fight each other. Instead of AI you have RI. Solves a whole lot of problems with unexpected and unique gameplay, and it might be a lot easier to implement than a conventional AI.

Perhaps it's just a matter of altering weapons timers and criminal flags.

I can't think of a way to time this to where two players converge at an NPC mining fleet at the same time, but I think it could be interesting. To prevent a situation where an Omega clone with 120 million SP is beating up on alphas, you could restrict it to alphas, or SP levels, or place it behind a gate.

Oh, wait. These player missions could be issued up to maybe 20 minutes in advance, and several systems away. That way you have better odds of getting two players to accept the same event and agree to meet at that time.

Maybe you could pay the defender at a trickle over time, and send attackers to sites that have an active defender. How does FW handle this?

One challenge we have in Eve is that most players are now adults with real life commitments. If we have an hour to play, there may not be another player nearby who is also looking for a fight.

The nice thing about NPC's is they are patient - they are always ready and willing to fight when we want. I have no issue with making them smarter and there are adaptive learning algorithms that could essentially make the computer unbeatable unless you program it to make mistakes. Some players will enjoy the challenge but those who farm NPCs for ISK will not be happy!

Options for casual players, whether by choice or because of real life obligations, need to be available in the game. Upgraded PVE is part of the solution.

That answers neither question.

Why should the NPC be able to cheat, how is it going to change it's fit once the duel starts, and what is stopping me from triggering this in a frigate and killing it in an orthrus?

All PVE should be killed off and replaced with PVP that pays out enough to cover the difference between insurance and ship replacement of a reasonable ship class.

Put the event behind a gate or wormhole and restrict access to a ship type or class. "This gate allows access to the following ship types: Battleship, Marauder, Black Ops"

If a battleship has to die for a 30 mil payout (to both sides) I think it might be workable against being gamed.

Even if you could game this to net a profit, it's still better to require a ship's destruction compared to letting players sequester themselves in a deep pocket and make ISK alone.