These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

CCPls. It is personally requested a dev finally give an answer.

Author
Sere O'Asis
Desert Oasis Investigations
#21 - 2016-12-16 18:57:02 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:



Personally, I think a structured bounty system cannot be made to work within the bounds of the game mechanic. If you want to place a bounty on someone, make a post in C&P, define conditions (like ship worth, shiptype, pod, w/e), give Chribba some money to hand out to whoever scores the kill. There, bounty system.




I have often thought this is the only system that would be workable in game.

The problem implementing it is publicizing it.

Current game mechanics make it easy to put a virtually useless bounty on someone; but make this workable, and potentially highly effective, alternative difficult to implement.

Bounty hunting is advertised in stations, third party services are not.

The only issue I see with a third party service, bounty hunting system would be the potential volume of contracts. A successful third party service provider, with proper advertising, could be swamped with work.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#22 - 2016-12-16 18:59:12 UTC
Sy Tarn Thallion wrote:
i'm sure whatever dev is reading this




This is possibly the most presumptuous thing I've read all decade

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

virm pasuul
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2016-12-16 19:11:49 UTC
Bounty missions on players could be given out by NPC agents.
The idea being that because the player doesn't get to choose the target it become more difficult to exploit.
Maybe CCP could put some code into the selection of the player target that reduces the chance of exploiting.
Decline and you lose standing just like existing missions.

It wouldn't be impossible to exploit, but it would make it much harder.
Salvos Rhoska
#24 - 2016-12-16 19:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Sere O'Asis wrote:
snip


Cant work. There is no way of ascertaining if the bounty target was not killed by an alt/ally whilst in a cheap ship/pod, so as to earn the bounty for themselves.

Do you begin now to realize how complicated and difficult this issue is?

The complexity is a mind-boggling excursion onto the "Inception" movie.
Every time you think you have it fixed, you are faced with a deeper problem.
Ive spent many hours trying to solve it (usually while riding on a bus). but everytime when I think I've got it, I am defeated.
Nobody yet has gone deep enough down that hole and emerged with a workable solution.

Its a Holy Grail in EVE.
Whomever figures it out, shall rightfully be celebrated.
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#25 - 2016-12-16 20:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
Frankly, the solution already exists. To have a governing body involved defining how it works is fruitless. Forget CCP's involvement completely. Players need to use the already available communication methods and put to use their networking skills + wallet.

You want someone dead? Communicate (again, with the tools already available to you) that you want JoeBlow killed and/or podded for X amount to be paid if it's done while he's in XYZ ship and a proper fit to boot with evidence from a killboard.

Don't be making this overly complicated.

Worried about the payout? Well, see what happens when you don't pay and how quick you become the hunted. Seriously, it governs itself. Worried the poster is an alt and no money? Then ask questions and do some background checks. What if he/she pods themselves? Did they sacrifice a ship and proper fit too? Then what's the problem?

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#26 - 2016-12-16 20:48:53 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
crazy off the top of my head idea

NPC bounty hunters
They perform the kill, they get the cash.
Runs in parallel to existing system.
When you place a bounty you can choose between two types of bounty. Existing bounty system, or NPC system.
NPC bounty hunters roam in small gangs using the new NPC AI system. The bigger your bounty the more of them turn up in the gang. They don't magically appear out of nowhere like concord, they have a few staging systems around New Eden and they set out and fly to the last reported location using locator agents and then buzz around that system and close systems.
They also visit major trade hubs and major trade hub routes.
They choose their targets via lottery. Every 1 million isk bounty on your head gets you a lottery ticket for their draw. They draw once a week pull say 100 winners and hunt them for a week.
If they kill you you are off the hook for the rest of the week until the next time you are drawn.
If you are drawn you get an evemail off them letting you know they are coming for you and the start and end dates they will be hunting you.
If they get a kill they evemail everyone who has put a bounty on you with the killmail and how much they got paid.

Nah, too little player interaction. More NPCs is not what we need. It would also be easy to counter: Hop in a T1 Frig/Noobship/Shuttle and sit in the bounty hunters space afk for the while, and once they shot you down, you are good to go for a week.

virm pasuul wrote:
Bounty missions on players could be given out by NPC agents.
The idea being that because the player doesn't get to choose the target it become more difficult to exploit.
Maybe CCP could put some code into the selection of the player target that reduces the chance of exploiting.
Decline and you lose standing just like existing missions.

It wouldn't be impossible to exploit, but it would make it much harder.

That's an interesting take, actually. Out of all players there are that have a bounty, a bounty contract agent would give you one, and only one. While this mission is active, the hunter would be allowed to freely engage the mark and vice versa. The hunter would not know who else might have a contract on this specific mark right now, the mark would not know who's hunting them at the moment until they meet. This would make it so that most of the time only one bounty hunter would encounter only one mark, providing some interesting gameplay both for the hunter and the mark. Of course, you could still f\\k with the odds by bringing neutral logistics or suicide gankers along, but the mark could do the same.

However, I can see problems there too: What if the mark is not currently active? Maybe they aren't playing at the moment, or they just log in every odd day to check mails and rearrange skills. Without the watch list, this would be very frustrating for the hunters.

Also there would still be the problem with placing low bounties on random targets just to make them die for s\\ts and giggles. I'd see a guy in a pimped out marauder running missions, and decide that he needs to lose that loot pinata of his. I place a bounty of 1M on his head, which would add him to the bounty lottery, and then I'd just wait and watch the killboards. The hunters would be all over that, even with a measly bounty, simply for the opportunity to add a shiny Marauder to their killboard. Too much trolling potential for my taste.

To avoid this, it would have to be done without the license to kill. But then - why would anyone want to be a bounty hunter, if the only somewhat realiable way to actually get to your target would be a suicide gank, which is very hard/next to impossible for properly fit combat ships?
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#27 - 2016-12-16 20:59:05 UTC
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Frankly, the solution already exists. To have a governing body involved defining how it works is fruitless. Forget CCP's involvement completely. Players need to use the already available communication methods and put to use their networking skills + wallet.

You want someone dead? Communicate (again, with the tools already available to you) that you want JoeBlow killed and/or podded for X amount to be paid if it's done while he's in XYZ ship and a proper fit to boot with evidence from a killboard.

Don't be making this overly complicated.

Worried about the payout? Well, see what happens when you don't pay and how quick you become the hunted. Seriously, it governs itself. Worried the poster is an alt and no money? Then ask questions and do some background checks. What if he/she pods themselves? Did they sacrifice a ship and proper fit too? Then what's the problem?

The danger of becoming the hunted is way too low to keep players from scamming there. Say I sit in my alliances nullsec space all day, and whenever I leave it, I do so in a fleet. Everything I have to do in Highsec, I do on an unknown alt or through alliance contracts. I am used to dodging roaming gangs left and right, because it's nullsec after all, and I can see any potential danger coming from miles away through the intel channels. What do you think can a cheated mercenary do to me?

Like I wrote earlier, I'd need a trusted third party such as Chribba to hold the bounty for me. However, those are few and far between, and they are getting rare these days.

Also there's the issue with making it known that bounties can be placed that way. Only few people would know that this is a thing, because only a fraction of players read the forums, let alone C&P. That is the main reason why this sort of thing isn't already happening. If there was an ingame overview at least that would show contracts issued this way, it might be a different story. However, with the need for a trusted third party, it wouldn't make sense to implement it, really.
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#28 - 2016-12-16 21:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
Neuntausend wrote:

The danger of becoming the hunted is way too low to keep players from scamming there. Say I sit in my alliances nullsec space all day, and whenever I leave it, I do so in a fleet. Everything I have to do in Highsec, I do on an unknown alt or through alliance contracts. I am used to dodging roaming gangs left and right, because it's nullsec after all, and I can see any potential danger coming from miles away through the intel channels. What do you think can a cheated mercenary do to me?
Where is the scam? Just because someone has a price on their head doesn't mean that it's a free kill. Anyone in real life with a bounty will hide where authorities are more plentiful and criminal acts are more difficult. So I see no issue with this.

Neuntausend wrote:

Like I wrote earlier, I'd need a trusted third party such as Chribba to hold the bounty for me. However, those are few and far between, and they are getting rare these days.
Where is the problem here? This doesn't break bounty hunting at all. You expect them to re-write a killboard and make up a fake kill?

Neuntausend wrote:

Also there's the issue with making it known that bounties can be placed that way. Only few people would know that this is a thing, because only a fraction of players read the forums, let alone C&P. That is the main reason why this sort of thing isn't already happening. If there was an ingame overview at least that would show contracts issued this way, it might be a different story. However, with the need for a trusted third party, it wouldn't make sense to implement it, really.
That's not an issue. Communication is in-game and bounty hunters will need to learn to evolve to find work. Most real bounties are done via personal networking and are not broadcasted anyways. Again, this doesn't mean it's a broken system.

I feel like the concern is for people who want to be bounty hunters. Their job is to gain notoriety and network to give them the chance to be. The onus is on them, not CCP.

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#29 - 2016-12-16 21:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Where is the scam? Just because someone has a price on their head doesn't mean that it's a free kill. Anyone in real life with a bounty will hide where authorities are more plentiful and criminal acts are more difficult. So I see no issue with this.

I think you misunderstood me there. You yourself said: "Worried about the payout? Well, see what happens when you don't pay and how quick you become the hunted." Personally, I don't care if I become the hunted, because the hunters can't do anything to me that several roaming gangs don't already try to do multiple times every week. So, if they are worried about the payout when somebody issues a contract without a trusted third party, that would be perfectly reasonable.

Neuntausend wrote:
Where is the problem here? This doesn't break bounty hunting at all. You expect them to re-write a killboard and make up a fake kill?

Well, if you go back a few posts, I myself said this method was the only one to make bounty hunting work properly. So I see where you are coming from. However, how many players are there that people would be willing to entrust with billions of isk? There's a limit to how many contracts Chribba can handle at one time, and I imagine Chribba may not be available at all times until the end of days.

Neuntausend wrote:
That's not an issue. Communication is in-game and bounty hunters will need to learn to evolve to find work. Most real bounties are done via personal networking and are not broadcasted anyways. Again, this doesn't mean it's a broken system.

I feel like the concern is for people who want to be bounty hunters. Their job is to gain notoriety and network to give them the chance to be. The onus is on them, not CCP.

There are already well known corps and alliances people can pay to do stuff. However, if you pay a well known entity because you know they can get the job done, that's not bounty hunting but a mercenary contract and not what this thread is about.

At the moment, my guess would be that the bulk of bounties in the game has been placed by players who don't even have a clue that the bounty system is ridiculously broken. Bounty hunters could work their asses off to make their existence and mode of operation known to the world, and still not get through to the majority of players, because the majority of players doesn't know s\\t about the game or its community. If a system is not right in their faces while they play the game, most players won't know it even exists.
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#30 - 2016-12-16 21:58:14 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
...

Agreed, I think I did misunderstand.

I don't know who or what Chribba is. My axiom is that the person putting out the hit holds on to their money until they are shown proof to pay up. I wouldn't be putting money up for anything until I've seen the results I've asked for. So to me, that part of the discussion is: *shrugs* doesn't impact me.

Bounty Hunting / Merc work I think is still an issue the players need to work out, not CCP.

Quoting a redit post:

Redit wrote:

–]The_Strict_NeinGrand Admiral 13 points 1 year ago
Mercs will do pretty much anything that requires force.
Bounty Hunters are only for catching bad guys.
Kind of like Mercs are a toolkit, while Bounty Hunters are a much higher quality screwdriver.

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#31 - 2016-12-16 22:17:42 UTC
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Agreed, I think I did misunderstand.

I don't know who or what Chribba is. My axiom is that the person putting out the hit holds on to their money until they are shown proof to pay up. I wouldn't be putting money up for anything until I've seen the results I've asked for. So to me, that part of the discussion is: *shrugs* doesn't impact me.

Still besides the point, I'm afraid. I'm thinking as the bounty hunter here. How could I as a bounty hunter be sure that I will actually get paid? Putting up a bounty on someone is not an everyday occurrence for most people, so most bounties would be placed by virtually unknown entities. So, that random guy here that I don't know might promise me 1 billion if I blow up that other random guy over there. But will I actually get the money if I do? And what do I do if I don't? (how's that for a sentence?)

Chribba is a well known player who frequently serves as a trusted third party on contracts of all sorts. So, if the issuer were to give the money to Chribba, then as a bounty hunter I could bank on getting paid. However, now that Darknesss (another well known third party) has gone bad, I think Chribba may be the only one left in the game. (besides The Mittani of course)

It's a given that a decent Merc corp for example needs to have a good reputation, because mercs typically get paid up front. However, for bounty hunting it's the issuers reputation that counts, because bounty hunters typically get paid after the work is done. And really, the issuer can not have a good reputation, unless he actually issued bounty contracts on a regular basis, which about nobody does.

General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#32 - 2016-12-16 22:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
That is the same problem people have to deal with in the real life. To me this is a complaint against failing to do investigation and networking. Not a valid complaint about a mechanic that needs fixing.

If Chribba is the only person who is trustworthy -- then I see a business opportunity here. I have no reason to steal ISK or go bad. I have no problem publishing my real identity, physical location, picture, name of my run away cat. Give me your money plus a small 10k convenience fee and i'll pay out to the person who fulfills your wishes. My wife would kill me if I did all that but it may be worth it..

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#33 - 2016-12-16 22:38:09 UTC
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
If Chribba is the only person who is trustworthy -- then I see a business opportunity here. I have no reason to steal ISK or go bad. I have no problem publishing my real identity, physical location, picture, name of my run away cat. Give me your money plus a small 10k convenience fee and i'll pay out to the person who fulfills your wishes. My wife would kill me if I did all that but it may be worth it..

Good luck with that. I have to say, though, this statement on top of the fact that you don't know who Chribba is makes me think you don't know all that much about what's going on in the Eve community, or how things work around here. Providing your real identity means absolutely nothing, because scamming ingame is not illegal in the real world. So, you could scam a guy, and he might know who you are and where you live, but what is he supposed to do about it? Call the police and tell them you didn't pay him some pixel money in an internet spaceship game? Or travel half way around the world to scratch your car and slash your tires, and potentially get busted for it?

Building a reputation that would enable you to act as a trusted third party takes way more than just posting a name and a couple of pictures (that might be real or fake, who can tell?). Google terms like "eve bank", "darknesss scam" or "olivia scam" to learn why smart players are very picky about who they trust.
Anianna Keilo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-12-16 22:52:26 UTC
Three letters, SWG. Make advanced wormhole probes to track the individuals location. If they happen to be in a keepstar, and the bounty is right, siege it!
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#35 - 2016-12-17 04:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
Neuntausend wrote:
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
If Chribba is the only person who is trustworthy -- then I see a business opportunity here. I have no reason to steal ISK or go bad. I have no problem publishing my real identity, physical location, picture, name of my run away cat. Give me your money plus a small 10k convenience fee and i'll pay out to the person who fulfills your wishes. My wife would kill me if I did all that but it may be worth it..

Good luck with that. I have to say, though, this statement on top of the fact that you don't know who Chribba is makes me think you don't know all that much about what's going on in the Eve community, or how things work around here. Providing your real identity means absolutely nothing, because scamming ingame is not illegal in the real world. So, you could scam a guy, and he might know who you are and where you live, but what is he supposed to do about it? Call the police and tell them you didn't pay him some pixel money in an internet spaceship game? Or travel half way around the world to scratch your car and slash your tires, and potentially get busted for it?

Building a reputation that would enable you to act as a trusted third party takes way more than just posting a name and a couple of pictures (that might be real or fake, who can tell?). Google terms like "eve bank", "darknesss scam" or "olivia scam" to learn why smart players are very picky about who they trust.

I think you missed the point I was making. Paying some neutral party is not how bounty or mercenary work should be done to begin with. I don't need to have knowledge of Eve communities or Chribba to know that what is being done currently shouldn't have been done at all. Real Merc and Bounty work has the very real risk of the job going awry and you not getting paid. So player complaints against such is inane.

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#36 - 2016-12-17 04:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
I think you missed the point I was making. Paying some neutral party is not how bounty or mercenary work should be done to begin with. I don't need to have knowledge of Eve communities or Chribba to know that what is being done currently shouldn't have been done at all. Real Merc and Bounty work has the very real risk of the job going awry and you not getting paid. So player complaints against such is inane.

Well, it's usually a good idea to have knowledge about a game to make any substantial statements about it. But maybe that's just me.

I'll play along. What's the point in bounty hunting, if you won't get paid? (and realistically, you won't get paid if there's no tangible reason to pay you, honor is merely a gooey substance that's typically stored in tanks in Eve)

Yes, in the real world, a bounty hunter may risk not getting paid, but in the real world, bounty hunters usually aren't bounty hunters for fun. Real world comparisons are always a bit odd when the topic is video games. In the end, it's still a game, and people do stuff because it's fun or because they win or because they get rewards for it.

Chasing a mark, not knowing if it's even online, and finding it docked 9 out of 10 times if it actually is online, then not getting paid in the rare case that you do manage to kill something and not being able to do anything about it does not actually sound like fun at all.

You can argue that people "should" be doing that however much you want, they still won't. I do agree that going the social route instead of the mechanical one is the only way to potentially make bounties work at all in Eve, however, there are good reasons why people aren't doing it that way already.

If a player was to act as an agent of sorts - taking bounty contracts, holding the actual bounty and paying it out if the contract gets fulfilled, that would be amazing. However, I don't know many players that are trusted enough to fill this role.
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#37 - 2016-12-17 13:20:44 UTC
As stated by others I too don't think the system is broken per se. The replacement for watchlists is something that could definitely help bounty hunting and kill rights could probably use increased visibility. The payment percentage could maybe be increased slightly without touching insurance as well.

Another approach that came to mind would be to escalate personal bounties to player corps and alliances. E.g. distribute all corp bounties evenly among its members upon placement and set the corp bounty to the sum of all personal bounties. Recalculate the corp bounty when somebody joins or leaves. Yes, guilt by association would deviate from the personal nature of bounties, but might in the end help both bounty hunters and issuers to achieve what they want.
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#38 - 2016-12-17 21:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
Neuntausend wrote:
What's the point in bounty hunting, if you won't get paid? (and realistically, you won't get paid if there's no tangible reason to pay you, honor is merely a gooey substance that's typically stored in tanks in Eve)
That onus is on the Merc's and BH's, not CCP, to deal with the payments. Don't take clients you don't trust. "Payback" clients who suck. You don't tailor to people's laziness and eagerness to do anything that is offered just so they can become a Merc or BH.

Neuntasend wrote:
Chasing a mark, not knowing if it's even online, and finding it docked 9 out of 10 times if it actually is online, then not getting paid in the rare case that you do manage to kill something and not being able to do anything about it does not actually sound like fun at all.
Then they should reconsider their occupation.

Neuntasend wrote:
You can argue that people "should" be doing that however much you want, they still won't. I do agree that going the social route instead of the mechanical one is the only way to potentially make bounties work at all in Eve, however, there are good reasons why people aren't doing it that way already.
Just because they won't doesn't mean that anything should change or that they should be catered to. I imagine the "good reasons" are those previously listed difficulties and obstacles. That's the nature of the beast. Maybe Mercs/BHs should be charging more and expecting something up front. Risk and reward for everything and everyone. There should be no attempt to remove that. If Mercs/Bhs only accept clients who pay a neutral party, then so be it. That solve's their issues. That neutral party shouldn't be CCP. Keep player issues in the player's hands. I for one would never use a neutral party nor expect it.

Neuntasend wrote:
If a player was to act as an agent of sorts - taking bounty contracts, holding the actual bounty and paying it out if the contract gets fulfilled, that would be amazing. However, I don't know many players that are trusted enough to fill this role.
Okay, and? Again, social issue. CCP should not be involved.

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#39 - 2016-12-17 21:32:18 UTC
General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Don't take clients you don't trust.

This being eve, that basically comes down to "Don't take clients"

General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
"Payback" clients who suck.

How? I already commented on why that doesn't work.

General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Then they should reconsider their occupation.

They can't do that, as they don't even take up that occupation in the first place, because it doesn't work, which is what this thread is about.

General Vasheir Gonzales wrote:
Maybe Mercs/BHs should be charging more and expecting something up front.

If you want someone dead, and you pick a specific entity to do the job for you, which would be necessary if said entity wanted payment up front, then that's not a bounty, that's a merc contract, and Mercs are known to be a thing in Eve and have nothing to do with this thread. A bounty is, when you just say "bring me that guys head and get a thousand gold pieces", and whoever manages to do it, gets the reward. See how up front payments don't work here?

Quote:
Okay, and? Again, social issue. CCP should not be involved.

Agreed, neither can nor should they mess with that. But obviously, the players can't do this either, otherwise they would. So, in far too many words, what we have established here is, that bounty hunting in Eve doesn't work. Which is what has been stated in the OP.

And considering that the game kind of suggests that bounty hunting is a thing, it's just fair to ask CCP, whose game it is after all, what they intend to do about it.
General Vasheir Gonzales
Leukos Psephos
#40 - 2016-12-18 00:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vasheir Gonzales
While I had a response to the rest, I think it's best to move on after I came up with the following. I still think it's in the players hands and the below may help balance each of our concerns.

Because I whole heartedly believe that a game mechanic should not be involved, in interest on trying to find something that works for both camps, I can support if something of a hacking skill was introduced which allowed tracking a persons docking and financial transactions. Omegas only, of course, heavy skill points required, and players gain something like the below:

(This only works if Eve Online even keeps such logs)

I: View information regarding last 5 docks at 12 hours previous to hacking attempt (or the closest information and timestamps but it must be older, not newer info). Only available for 10 Minutes
II: View Information regarding last 10 docks, 10 outgoing financials and 10 incoming financials (automatic or manual with a filter once displayed) at 12 hours previous to hacking attempt (or the closest information and timestamps but it must be older, not newer info). Only available for 15 minutes.
III: Improves on II by changing to be 6 hours previous to hacking attempt and 20 minute availability.
IV: Improves on III by using the closest information which can be newer information (priority being older if a "tie" exists) and allows 20 transactions, returning exactly 10 automatic and 10 manual transactions. 25 minute availability.
V: Improves on IV by changing to be 2 hours previous to hacking attempt and 30 minute availability and last 15 docks (I'm thinking maybe at lvl V or a second set of trainings to allow viewing last 3 jumps or something).

Requires some very expensive equipment made by blueprints and they have limited uses. Lore could be that the network which permeates new-eden allowing for clones is what this hacking technology uses but is regularly fried in the process. Access is done by tapping into the capsuleer themselves, which creates a drain on their own stamina making frequent hacking attempts detrimental to their performance and survivability--obviously the timer would have to be a game balance issue settled as we see the usage of it.

I don't think CCP should be involved in the ISK transactions at all in regards to Mercs/Bhs.

Founder & CEO of Leukos Psephos

Previous page123Next page