Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This thread is about carriers, not supercarriers.

The carriers are not balanced between themselves. Current combat use for carriers is either triage use in small-scale fights, or large fleet combat without triage. I'll talk about the triage fits; the imbalance is quite similar for large fleet setups, though.

The carriers would be balanced if each of them has a comparable advantage and disadvantage to the others. They don't.

The basic idea behind the carriers are:

Chimera - good tank, shield RR, energy transfers
Archon - good tank, armor RR, energy transfers
Thanatos - mediocre tank, both shield and armor, extra damage
Nidhoggur - meiocre tank, both shield and armor, extra RR

The tank numbers below are without gang bonus - gang bonus increases the differences between the setups even further. Also, the armor setups use T2 modules for better comparison, even though armor faction mods are much cheaper than shield faction mods.

Archon

Rooks and Kings standard setup:
- http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29570 - full triage
- http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29574 - refit for local tank

The Archon can fit 3 armor RR, an energy transfer, dual reppers and a triage module with no problem. In a fully cap stable T2 fit (RR with triage is cap stable), it has a local tank of 8990 dps and 775k EHP. A fully cap stable local rep setup (T2) gets 11,485 dps tank. The Archon only needs to change one CPR to an EANM to switch between those two fits.

Chimera

2x CST, 1x CET, triage / CSB, invul II, 5x cap recharger II / 4x CPR II / 3x CCC

The Chimera can only fit 2 shield RR plus the energy transfer. 3 shield transfers and no energy transfer require a +3% cpu implant. The only way to get it cap stable with 2x CST is to fill the lows with CPRs, which hurts the local tank quite a bit - in this setup, the Chimera tanks 5599 dps at 752k EHP. A fully cap stable local rep setup gets 10,328 dps tank. This requires 5 modules to be switched (all lows to flux coils, mid-slot cap recharger).

=> The Chimera is worse than the Archon in every single respect, and not by a small margin. The Archon has an extra capital RR which it can pulse for better rep power and it has a better tank. And the Chimera can only get cap stability by either using CPRs which hurt the local tank, or CFCs which hurt the cap amount, making it much more vulnerable to neutralizers. Additionally, switching the remot cap stable setup to the local cap stable setup requires much more work.

These two carriers are not balanced.

Thanatos

Same fit as the Archon, just -1 CPR II, +1 Cap Recharger II.

670k EHP, local tank at 6742 dps (8614 with cap stable local tank), can run 2 remote armor RR. These numbers are a joke compared to the numbers above. But well, the purpose of this carrier is to do damage, not to tank or rep, right?

The Thanatos gets 25% extra damage from fighters. A max damage fitted Thanatos (5 DCUs) gains 375 dps from this bonus (225-250 dps for "normal" fits). That is the equivalent of a T1 cruiser.

=> The Thanatos has an advantage compared to the Archon (more damage), and a disadvantage (less local tank), but the advantages are not comparable. Carrier damage is usually irrelevant and not their primary goal(on the scale of a single gank BS), and the Thanatos bonus gives a very minor advantage.

Nidhoggur

Same setup as the Thanatos.

613k EHP, otherwise identical to the numbers of the Thanatos.

The ship gets a 25% RR bonus. This is equivalent to half a capital remote armor repair system. Power grid is not sufficient to fit a third RR.

=> The Nidhoggur is strictly worse than the Archon, as the Archon can fit a 3rd capital remote RR but which it can only pulse, giving it pretty much the same bonus as the Nidhoggur, except with a much better tank, and the energy transfer for extra utility.

(tbc.)

Decide what role you want them to have first and go from there. It has been 2-3 years since I saw a locally tanked carrier. All it takes is a couple of neuting BS and it drops like a fly, so I say ignore everything that has to do with "local anything" and put focus on RR + 'secret ingredient'*.

* We have had a couple of threads recently regarding gang-links breaking the mold when they apply to everyone in an entire system. One of the little known facts (never seen one fitted at any rate) of carriers is that they along with SCs/Titans are designed to field links (ie. fitting bonus).
Assuming that supers will retain most of their heavy hitter status and gang links are made on-grid only sometime Soon™, wouldn't it make sense to have two principal RR carriers and two link bearers? The differentiation can be made by simply adding a link bonus to Thanny and Nid for instance, leaving Archon/Chim as the go-to hulls for large RR duty (or some other pairing .. you get the idea).

In short: Having all/most of the carriers have nearly the same performance but flavoured in all scenarios is boring as hell. The only one that will stand out is the Thanny due to damage bonus (which is naff to start with). Assign roles and redesign them based on those.

before you start rebalancing them, tell first, whats not ok with them right now??? Dont understand.

I'm not too fixed on the exact dps numbers - I was mostly trying to find a role for the Thanatos that's not covered by the other carriers already ("shield fleet support", "armor fleet support", "can do both with some perks and drawbacks"). Currently, a Thanatos can get up to 1500 dps with a maxed-out fit, and no one uses it for that, so that's definitely too little.

I'm not sure if fighter bombers are a good idea for the Thanatos, but it's certainly an interesting one.

Good idea.

Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and constructive, thank you.

Thanny damage needs a boost if it's staying like it is now(the dps carrier), but 50% per level is just too much 10-12.5% or something might work

Chimera just doesn't get anywhere close to an Archon, either local tank will be much worse or the RR will be much worse

Nidhoggur still lacks CPU. (And so does the Thanny if you want a triage shield fit)

There is so much idiocy in this post I'm calling troll. Nobody who has any idea about capital ships could make this many hilarious mistakes in one go.

What this man said.

Carriers need massive buffs. In fact, the entire Capital ship line needs buffs and expanding, new hulls, new modules. They need t2 variants useful against supers and new t1 hulls and mods that make short work of sub caps.

I think Capacitor Power Relays affecting capital shield boosters while cap rechargers not affecting capital armor reppers is pretty much the major balancing problem remaining outside of implants, and the latter has been acknowledged as a problem.

Removed Post.