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[December] Excavator Mining Drone yield rebalance

First post First post First post
Author
Laenas
Doomheim
#261 - 2016-12-08 15:29:56 UTC
CCP poor business decision #infinity, don't release stuff that is broken just to "see how it goes" it's terrible for the game. People get invested and then you rip out the rug from under their feet. It hurts player retention and it's a bad business decision CCP make multiple times a year.

Can you just stop
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#262 - 2016-12-08 15:30:34 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Querns wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:

Here's the thing - I was one of the Rorq pilots on the D-W beacon


"I'm one of the most prolific abusers of this mechanic, so let me tell you why it's not abuse"


It's certainly a more informed vantage point than 99% of GSF who are just parroting the company line. In the mean time, keep jumping your ratting-fit supers into PVP situations whose only hope is to kill the thing tackling it if things go south. Damn, if I can't be more obvious about what the counter is, I'm not sure even CCP can help you. The real irony is that the NPCs you live among have it down better than you.

its so easy, all you need are neuting bumping naglfars and you can easily kill these untacklable titans

oh wait its 2016 not 2006

its so easy, all you need are neuting bumping supercarriers and relying on the invincible rorqual to have forgotten his cap boosters
Trevize Demerzel
#263 - 2016-12-08 16:03:52 UTC
Allow me to help out CCP:

Taken from: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/mining-foreman-revolution/#RORQ

Quote:
Whether these modes are running or not, the ability to field 5 ‘Excavator’ Mining Superdrones will make the Rorqual the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden.


So let me update that for ya:

Whether these modes are running or not, the ability to field 5 ‘Excavator’ Mining mediocre-drones will make the Rorqual a crazy high risk mining vessel that can mine only slightly better then you could before with a hulk and a few cans. It will be the fastest fire sale of any ship ever in the history of New Eden.

There we go. That'll help clarify things on the Rorq.

-

Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
#264 - 2016-12-08 16:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Querns wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Querns wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:

Here's the thing - I was one of the Rorq pilots on the D-W beacon


"I'm one of the most prolific abusers of this mechanic, so let me tell you why it's not abuse"


It's certainly a more informed vantage point than 99% of GSF who are just parroting the company line. In the mean time, keep jumping your ratting-fit supers into PVP situations whose only hope is to kill the thing tackling it if things go south. Damn, if I can't be more obvious about what the counter is, I'm not sure even CCP can help you. The real irony is that the NPCs you live among have it down better than you.


Silly me, thinking you should be able to kill a tackling ship.

But, hey, I'm sure that five heavy scram, two staggered heavy cap booster rorquals with nos are very neutable, ahyuck.


Indeed, they are. I wish I had been frap'ing my screen during that drop, because you would be able to see that running 5 HWDs and 3 links, having to spank the capital MWD to stop from getting flung out by dreads spawning and insta-sieging inside me, that capacitor management was absolutely key and a struggle to maintain. At several points I had to stop running all my HWDs and run only a few in order to maintain just a sliver of cap to keep the links on. Only a scant few heavy neuts would have caused me real problems in terms of keeping adequate tackle... certainly enough for a super or titan to escape.

But no, those heavy neuts didn't happen - because according to you guys the high slots on a super are home to only 3 modules and never any others. I'm both surprised and not surprised that I'm having to explain this - but much like the GSF member near the end of Jay's video who said "lol we rekt them", there seems to be a distinct lack of clue as to what's really going on.

Querns wrote:

You seem awfully focused on the fit of the wyvern. Why is that? This is 2016; supercarriers are for ratting.


Then don't cry when they start hitting the floor in non-ratting situations?

The other supers which died were marginally better fitted for suddenly PVP, however judging from the contents of their cargo and fleet hangars, one sees that The Goon is still very much behind the curve on using them usefully in combat overall. Much like the debate within GSF to stay shield or go armor, some myopic decisions have been made to ensure that their super pilots are survivable or, at least, ready to be so.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#265 - 2016-12-08 16:15:04 UTC
"you see, my cap management was difficult because i fit my invincible rorqual poorly, this means it's well balanced!"
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#266 - 2016-12-08 16:18:36 UTC
Drecko Valdez wrote:
I've always loved the rorq and been a rorq pilot for a long time, but in its current form it's a bit broken. Let's be honest, 400-450 mill per hour mining is a bit much. Now it'll only be around 250-300. It's not like its useless. With the panic module and ability mine a lot, and boost its fleet, seems to me only the fairweather rorqs will leave.


No, no it's really not that much ISK considering the build up, maintenance, and risks.

Hi-Sec Incursions, 110-150 per hour:
Effectively zero risk
Effectively not depletable
Require minimal investment
Cannot be taken away from the player
Require no active defense
Creates no player content
Does not require Sov

Rorqual Mining, 250-300 per hour (your new estimate):
Very Risky
Very depletable, mineral markets can crash, belts can dry up
Requires huge individual investment
Can be interrupted by other players
Requires active defense
Creates massive amounts of player content
Require Sov


CCP has a decade+ of player behavior patterns. Time and time again we have seen that the vast majority of people will hedge their betting down to almost nothing and take the secure income every time. They need to change this, and some avenues suggest some in CCP get it - coercing players into taking risks, thus enriching New Eden, requires that these risks be worth taking.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#267 - 2016-12-08 16:26:33 UTC
Dibz wrote:
Blimey, look at all these angry Goons. A sure sign that the proposed changes must be good for the game.


Reading isn't your strongest skill, is it? It's OK, your "Grr Gons" is adorable
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2016-12-08 16:26:50 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:

Indeed, they are. I wish I had been frap'ing my screen during that drop, because you would be able to see that running 5 HWDs and 3 links, having to spank the capital MWD to stop from getting flung out by dreads spawning and insta-sieging inside me, that capacitor management was absolutely key and a struggle to maintain. At several points I had to stop running all my HWDs and run only a few in order to maintain just a sliver of cap to keep the links on. Only a scant few heavy neuts would have caused me real problems in terms of keeping adequate tackle... certainly enough for a super or titan to escape.

But no, those heavy neuts didn't happen - because according to you guys the high slots on a super are home to only 3 modules and never any others. I'm both surprised and not surprised that I'm having to explain this - but much like the GSF member near the end of Jay's video who said "lol we rekt them", there seems to be a distinct lack of clue as to what's really going on.

Then don't cry when they start hitting the floor in non-ratting situations?

The other supers which died were marginally better fitted for suddenly PVP, however judging from the contents of their cargo and fleet hangars, one sees that The Goon is still very much behind the curve on using them usefully in combat overall. Much like the debate within GSF to stay shield or go armor, some myopic decisions have been made to ensure that their super pilots are survivable or, at least, ready to be so.

Seems like you shouldn't have been running the links, then, and fit for more cap, while bringing the links on dedicated (or at least less cap hungry) auxiliary rorquals.

None of this changes the fact that jump hictors are overpowered and need to be nerfed. I'll "cry" less about losing supers when you and yours stop crying about losing your overpowered toys.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2016-12-08 16:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
alternatively, the invincible rorquals could have dropped a bit of the structure tank for cap mods because, you know, they're invincible
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#270 - 2016-12-08 16:36:44 UTC
but hey tell me more about running unbonused armor links for a ship with 84,000 EHP in armor

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Capitan Levis
Netherstorm
Prothean Alliance
#271 - 2016-12-08 16:44:51 UTC
Why are you doing this? what is the meaning of the game ,if rorchach only dig does not work, as it drained her, stoiomst Rorqual, it does not justify production, you'd better come up with a means of lamps in the system, and not all garbage, and in General your patch since November 15, complete bullshit, you can't come up with something really interesting
Gisele Serebriakova
Norman's Meat Market
#272 - 2016-12-08 16:49:39 UTC
The new Rorq's have been nuking mineral prices in Jita 4-4 since launch. t1 Hull prices are down something like 20%. Mineral prices drop but hull prices stick: margins on hulls have ballooned to 1-2mil a slot/hr even as the price declines daily.

IDK what to tell you a nerf to yield is probably better then just waiting for the inevitable price collapse.
PorkCleaner
The Dysfunctionals
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2016-12-08 17:08:33 UTC
I got lucky with my rorqual because I had most components for the build. Nevertheless I disagree with CCP's interpretation of the data.

Risk/Reward
There are countless examples of high value items being placed at risk for high reward in Eve. All of them in PVP or PVE; for the first time, there was something of the like in Indy but now gone.

Market vrs. Content
For every other facet of the game, the balancing is in the experience itself; but for some unfair reason, anything done to Indy has to be scrutinized by stats on the economic balance. It is a game and the experience should not be forgotten. In this case, the thrill of putting your balls on the window while raking in ore.

Quantity vrs. Content
What makes the best patches or updates are not the balances but the new content. What is lost on CCP and many is that the new content is a rebalance in-itself. Things that were missing or lacking, when adjusted makes a balance. If the Rorqual was going to mess with the exhumers and price of ore, then offer something else on the rorqual not yet offered in content. you are game designers - use imagination.

IN the end, I am disappointed with the reasoning because faulty reasoning is hard to fix and will translate to other poor decisions.

Porky
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2016-12-08 17:56:35 UTC
Some things that could be done to mitigate the awful quality of this thread:

* Briefly explain the reasoning behind the rorqual yield reduction. If the reason is indeed that the capital drone mining rigs weren't taken into account, then I think most people will be okay with that. We may rib you a little for forgetting it, but it's at least consistent and unbiased. That counts for a lot.

* Make a statement about PANIC and electronic warfare. I and others realize that the December patch is on Tuesday, and between that and the imminent holiday season, it's highly unlikely that any change would actually occur until 2017. That being said, a statement affirming the intent to nerf the "jump hictor" would do a lot to quell the bad reactions going on.

Obviously, I, as well as my confederates in Goonswarm Federation, would prefer to have mega-yield crok-sucking Rorquals, but if logic and reasoning are used to explain things, we would have little remaining ground to protest.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Frances Voltaire
Eldorado Exhumers
#275 - 2016-12-08 18:12:25 UTC
Since the Excavator is getting nerfed by 32%, will the materials required to build the drone also get nerfed by 32%?

So instead of 50 Elite Drone AI components we would now only need 34?

Will this also mean a 32% reduction in time to Skill Rorqual and skill the Drones too?

Just saying, if your going to nerf capability you should also nerf the requirements to create and use by the same amount to keep it balanced.

Inquiring Miners want to know.

Kayoss
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#276 - 2016-12-08 18:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayoss
Maybe start with a 15% reduction in Ore Mined and a 100% boost to Excavator Drone Speed.
I think that would be a much better start that isn't over kill.
Or send everyone with a Rorq 10 Skill Extractors so we can get our Skill Points back.
Samarr Ramadge
Dead Eye Development for Dummies
#277 - 2016-12-08 19:23:17 UTC
no.
guys, no.
you should think twice before committing new updates.
so be as it is. enough.
ckinoutdahoe
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#278 - 2016-12-08 22:38:22 UTC
A question: Is the amount mined with what is now the best mining ship in the game really worth the nerf?

The drones are slow as **** even with 3 drone nav mods to move them along.

The cost of the Rorq, all the mods and rigs and the new mining drones themselves are a fortune. 10 billion for something very cheap and closer to 14 with faction, dead space, or other wise fitted.

We have spent as a collective group who have spent massive isk to inject skills or plex characters that were otter wise potentially inactive.

We have spent months or longer working our back sides off in one form or another to ensure we have a ship or a few and have enough isk to buy the expected expensive new drones.

The Rorq is still only doing what was initially intended to mine: 5 hulks worth of ore since they are so bloody slow no matter what you do.

So, with this said; it is us as those who decide to mine unprotected no matter what you do you are a exceptionally expensive target with far less in the the way of defense compared to other capitals if you want to garner a decent yield for your time.

Personally, I think you should TOTALLY reconsider any nerf as it is not OUR faults that those who have 1/2 a brain put the ship to good use.........SO, what is the complaint? we use the ship as intended? boo hoo.

I find this to be a very unsatisfactory way of handling a situation that has many months to trouble shoot.

Who finds a 32% nerf to be exceptionally excessive? I know I do.

Perhaps it is time to actually consider how your paying members feel before taking a sledge hammer to them.

We are very adaptable as players and as people in general but we all have feelings and are a bit weary being brutalized as we have been over the last couple of years.

If this was a areal problem we would bring it to your attention and then consideration of addressing this would be appropriate.

This message is far less salty than the last and I have taken the time to send a message with more clarity and thought compared to the last.

For me to take this much time as well as so many others has to have some value worth considering.

Now then, it seems the ball is in your court. I do hope your final decision is as thoughtful and well considered for what you decide for in the end the question will be.....Do you have happy players or ones that are yet again disgruntled and disgusted in our game play. What and how you decide is important. Show us how important we are to you.
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
#279 - 2016-12-09 01:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Retar Aveymone wrote:
alternatively, the invincible rorquals could have dropped a bit of the structure tank for cap mods because, you know, they're invincible


Buffer's there for insurance; affording time to hit the PANIC mod on a possibly (and predictably true, as it turned out) lagged out and quite busy grid. It could absorb 2 DDs. Chances are that if I didn't PANIC by the time a first one landed, I better do it then because probably the second one is coming in right behind it. You know, like any competent DD coordination these days. My Rorq may not have needed it in the end, but we were prepared for one of several plausible outcomes.

At any rate, one doesn't counter neuts with low slot capacitor mods, bro. CPRs might work against your daily nemesis the Blood Raiders, but not against the possibility of multiple staggered heavy/capital neuts alpha'ing your cap. I guess you really tricked us there, as the only neuts of consequence on grid were our alts :laffo:
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#280 - 2016-12-09 01:23:56 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:

CPRs might work against your daily nemesis the Blood Raiders

This statement is funny, because you and yours are shooting more rats per member on a given day these days than your meatshield.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.