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[December] Excavator Mining Drone yield rebalance

First post First post First post
Author
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#201 - 2016-12-07 22:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerono Thalmor
Rorquals are supposed to be the be-all-end-all of industry-related ships. Having the yield of three hulks doesn't seem like it's worth it instead of having a porpoise and three hulks. But if you guys are seriously bent on changing this, at least buff it in another area in return. A larger ore hold, or a boost in the effectiveness of boosts, even a slight one. I really don't think that just chopping off a third of the yield without doing anything else to the ship is wise, and this is indicated by the (rightfully) irritated posts previous mine.

EDIT: In essence, it may be an oversight on your end, CCP, but now the cat's out of the bag; either don't change the yield, or do something equally useful but less potentially harmful to the economy instead.

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Cade Windstalker
#202 - 2016-12-07 22:27:06 UTC
Kerono Thalmor wrote:
Rorquals are supposed to be the be-all-end-all of industry-related ships. Having the yield of three hulks doesn't seem like it's worth it instead of having a porpoise and three hulks. But if you guys are seriously bent on changing this, at least buff it in another area in return. A larger ore hold, or a boost in the effectiveness of boosts, even a slight one. I really don't think that just chopping off a third of the yield without doing anything else to the ship is wise, and this is indicated by the (rightfully) irritated posts previous mine.

EDIT: In essence, it may be an oversight on your end, CCP, but now the cat's out of the bag; either don't change the yield, or do something equally useful but less potentially harmful to the economy instead.


This is just poor logic, if you have four pilots the actual answer is either 4 Rorquals or 1 Rorqual and 3 Hulks, not a Porpoise and 3 Hulks.

Also I'd like to point out that they *just changed the Rorqual* so preventing harm to the economy from the previous changes is exactly what this tweak is trying to do, probably by tweaking the Risk/Reward matrix on the Rorqual a bit and reducing their impact on the economy as a result.
Cyrus th3V1RUS
The Lost.
#203 - 2016-12-07 22:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
When ever something great and good for the player occurs in this Game Fozzie fks it up. WTF. Ya I'm salty, I just spent crap tons of isk to risk inturn for more reward. So, I'/ll be getting a refund on the Excavators I spent billions on? You already have made us put the rorq into the belts, then add niv\ce fat expensive drones, but the reward is great for your risk.....why keep subbing I dont know.

Please be polite when addressing changes. Thanks. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Hippojaxx
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#204 - 2016-12-07 22:40:50 UTC
As a rorqual miner I assumed a nerf would come in a timely manner. Do I think it's a little soon ? Yes, but what can you do. My big

gest concern is the 10ly jump hictor that is getting a "wait and see" response.


Fozziesmug
Bleeding Fox
Initial Industries Incorporation
Pandora Hearts
#205 - 2016-12-07 22:47:36 UTC
Roll Deploying that ship makes my heart race. lol. This change hurts my soul Lol but hopefully the argument "nerfing volume, not income" will be true in the bigger picture.

I have my doubts it will be true though, being stuck behind an ore buyback program Ugh
Advenat Bedala
Facehoof
#206 - 2016-12-07 22:47:47 UTC
Looks like CCP finally discovered presence of mining rigs.

IMO most rorqual OP is in
"90% reduction to effective distance travelled for jump fatigue"

Rorqual is multi-functional ship, not only industrial
Solari Eclipse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#207 - 2016-12-07 22:58:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Reducing the mining yield of 'Excavator' Mining Drones by 32%
  • Increasing the drop rates of the Elite Drone AI and Drone Coronary Unit rogue drone components


Thanks!



Perhaps you could nerf them 132% then see where you are from there? Would pay minerals to sit stuck on a anom with 6b in drones that outpace the quickest of glaciers.

Come now, let's not over correct so hard it takes 3 years to figure this out, like the drone bug that shows my seriously spendy drones as being out when they're in my bay or worse vise versa.

How about we fix that, and *balance* mining rather than ignore one or both.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2016-12-07 23:02:44 UTC
So where was this love for mining when the Procurer and Retriever received a 25% yield nerf?

And to the rest; you want more Drone Speed - fit Drone Navigation Computers. You know - that valued Reward vs Risk metric.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#209 - 2016-12-07 23:16:36 UTC
Aasir wrote:

Vald Tegor wrote:


Things tend to need a "nerf" when you tell your economy guys to run a number, then overshoot it by 50%.


Your telling me that in all the time they were re balancing the rorqual no one at ccp remembered their were mining drone rigs? Don't even talk to me

Care to give a better explanation as to why the actual yield, that made it to the live server, is 50% higher than the presented changes in the dev blog? Can you not multiply the rocks you are getting by their volume or something?

Here's another possibility, after thinking about it some more:

We have established that the yield estimate in the blog is missing a ~50% multiplier.
People have been endlessly wondering how the 2000 drone dps in the dev blog was arrived at. 5 Ogre 2's with T2 core and 4 T2 drone damage amps give us 1352 dps according to pyfa.

2000 * 0.68 = 1360

There's an extra 50% multiplier in there.

Drone interfacing gives +50% drone mining yield and +50% drone dps. Not two (stacking) 50% drone dps multipliers. Easy mistake to make on a spreadsheet. Hard to miss when you undock.

Do we get a drone dps buff with this change as well to compensate?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#210 - 2016-12-08 00:17:25 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:


We have established that the yield estimate in the blog is missing a ~50% multiplier.
People have been endlessly wondering how the 2000 drone dps in the dev blog was arrived at. 5 Ogre 2's with T2 core and 4 T2 drone damage amps give us 1352 dps according to pyfa.

Try using Augmented drones, also what happens if you use Sentries with max Sentry DPS rigs.
Also fill all your low slots with W-634 DDA's.
The fit to get the max DPS they used is not really sensible.
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
#211 - 2016-12-08 00:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Klavas wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Klavas wrote:
It amazes me that you see an issue with null sec mining rates yet see no issue with invulnerable neuting hictors that can jump 10LY.

How does leaving that mechanic in place help game play?


Man, it's as if GSF members are mailed talking points every morning to spout en masse on the forums.


It's almost like anyone that has any interaction with these game mechanics sees what the glaring issues are.


Here's the thing - I was one of the Rorq pilots on the D-W beacon - so yes, I've had a little experience with these game mechanics. So take it from me when I say that it doesn't take a unrealistic re-adjustment or a stretch of the imagination on how to counter a PANIC'd tackle Rorq. It may mean your supers who are fit for max-tick ratting will have to refit before jumping in and committing on any kind of actual PVP, however.

Oh, the choices one must make. Maybe you all will realize this along with realizing that the mining yield nerf isn't actually that bad. With the nerf amount, it's pretty obvious that whoever came up with the original yield number forgot to account for the mining drone rigs and they're correcting for it sooner rather than later.
Ace Aideron
Red Falcon Group
#212 - 2016-12-08 00:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Aideron
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Reducing the mining yield of 'Excavator' Mining Drones by 32%
  • Increasing the drop rates of the Elite Drone AI and Drone Coronary Unit rogue drone components



IOW, past buyers who paid more for their Excavators will receive 32% less yield, while future buyers will have the benefit of knowing the new specs and getting them for less cost, due to the drop increases.

In the interest of being fair, will you also be rebating skill points and isk for those of us who sold off lots of assets and worked our asses off to get into Rorquals and Excavators based on the original economics?

Also, when you say "Increasing the drop rates of the Elite Drone AI," does that include changes to Rogue Drone Patrols? As things are now, only a few Patrols will drop one AI chip, but the sites are so frig-heavy that they're not economical to run compared to Hordes, even at 10M isk per chip.
Grognard Commissar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2016-12-08 00:33:30 UTC
Sisi Collins wrote:
Making simple math between

Rorq mining fit:
5x excavator drones,
2x t2 capital mining drone augm,
1x t1 capital mining drone augm,
mining drone spec 4lvl,
capital indi ship 4lvl,
NO PANIC button

We will get 40k m3 per 90sec / 444,44 m3 per 1sec
Hull+fit cost approximate - 2.6bil (hull)+6.15bil (drones)+0.945bil (rigs)+1.2bil(some random fit)
TOTAL - 10.895bil

Hulk fit+BONUS rorq:
perfect skills,
perfect rorq bonuses with t2 indi core activated
implant +3%
3x t2 mining laser upgrades in low slots
t2 crystalls

We will get 3282 m3 per 44.3sec / 74.085 m3 per 1sec
Hulk Hull+fit cost approximate - 0.328bil
Rorq Hull+fit cost approximate - 2.6bil (hull)+0.3bil (rigs) + 0.8bil (fit)
TOTAL - 4.028bil

Taking into account math above:
BEFORE NERF
1 MINING RORQ = 6x PERFECT HULK (best bonuses) this will be less due to drone movement.

AFTER NERF (-32%)
1 MINING RORQ = 4x PERFECT HULKS (best bonuses) this will be less due drones movement.


I'll take maximum mining from rorq fit. Rigs for mining are most bad idea, but i've took to show math.

So right now mining rorq from point of view of mining - looks like CAPITAL INDUSTRIAL SHIP, mines like hell.

But with nerf (-32%), 5min being flying frag-brick, prices on drones and hull, and without mining rigs (to add more survivability) - rorqual will not be in my eyes - CAPITAL INDUSTRIAL SHIP. RORQUAL will be just 3 hulks and absolutely not worth investment of 11bil into it.

Investment is so ******* risky....

Increasing drop rate of drones components will lower prices on excavator drones in some time, if there is no nerf implemented.
With implementation of nerf, prices on excavator drones will drop, because no one will buy them.

I feel sorry for those who invest a lot into rorquals.

If looking into changes from mining perspective:

-20-25% nerf to excavator drones
2-2.5min duration for industrial core
+15-20% increase of speed to excavator drones.


not only that, but you're stuck in one spot for 5 minutes... and the drones are retardedly slow. you're also a 6+b killmail... so people LOOOVVE to kill you.
it's alll about risk vs reward... that 32% is gonna really screw the reward, 15-20% seems more realistic.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#214 - 2016-12-08 00:38:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:


We have established that the yield estimate in the blog is missing a ~50% multiplier.
People have been endlessly wondering how the 2000 drone dps in the dev blog was arrived at. 5 Ogre 2's with T2 core and 4 T2 drone damage amps give us 1352 dps according to pyfa.

Try using Augmented drones, also what happens if you use Sentries with max Sentry DPS rigs.
Also fill all your low slots with W-634 DDA's.
The fit to get the max DPS they used is not really sensible.

Garde 2's will do 1168 because the sentry rig is stacking penalized with DDA's. The third rig does literally nothing and the second adds 1 dps.

With T2 core, 4 of the best officer drone amps, and a set of Augmented Ogres you get 1636.

The only way you are getting anywhere near 2000 dps, is by adding 7 faction smartbombs to the fit for a total of 1986 DPS. The EP-705 implant will push you to 2005.

The problem with that comes in when you look at the original post:

Quote:

Max DPS (no Industrial Core): ~1000 dps
Max DPS (with Industrial Core): ~2000 dps

Core off the officer + smartbomb fit is at 1007 drone dps + 368 smartbomb dps. That doesn't add up either.

Now in theory activating the core adds a 100% drone damage bonus so you would think 1007 DPS would turn into ~2000 dps. But those pesky stacking penalties poke their heads out again. That last Officer DDA, being a 5th mod when sieged, adds a whole 44 dps.
Grognard Commissar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2016-12-08 00:39:57 UTC
Lustig Allas-Rui wrote:
Grognard Commissar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. We've been keeping a close eye on how people are using the newly rebalanced Rorquals and it's been really exciting watching how well people have taken to the new gameplay.

We have decided that we need to make a tweak in our December release next Tuesday to adjust the balance of mining Rorquals and keep the mining economy in a healthy place.

We are planning two connected changes in this release:
  • Reducing the mining yield of 'Excavator' Mining Drones by 32%
  • Increasing the drop rates of the Elite Drone AI and Drone Coronary Unit rogue drone components

We are continuing to keep an eye on all aspects of gameplay around the mining foreman ships. I know some players are hoping that we would make adjustments to other areas of Rorqual gameplay (such as ewar use while the PANIC module is running) but we feel comfortable leaving those aspects alone for now and continuing to observe how the metagame evolves. We of course reserve the right to make more changes to this or any other aspects of the Rorqual in upcoming patches to keep the ecosystem in balance.

Thanks!

can we at least disallow PANIC whilst an entosis link is active?


That is one of the few things a Rorqual can not do.

... what're you looking at? PL has been using PANIC rorqs for HIC and entosis for weeks
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2016-12-08 00:47:15 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:

Here's the thing - I was one of the Rorq pilots on the D-W beacon


"I'm one of the most prolific abusers of this mechanic, so let me tell you why it's not abuse"

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Atomic Virulent
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#217 - 2016-12-08 01:00:18 UTC
I think CCP's decision-making staff needs to be reduced by 32%.
Lythan Xavolox
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2016-12-08 01:03:19 UTC
"Hey everyone. We've been keeping a close eye on how people are using the newly rebalanced Rorquals and it's been really exciting watching how well people have taken to the new gameplay."

So exciting that we decided to make you a present for chrismas... here a nice -32% nerf! Lol
Barry Ryan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#219 - 2016-12-08 01:12:14 UTC
holy **** just leave **** alone. The drones are fine in anythink make them mine more not less. You want the rorq to be the be and end all off mining. So why in the **** would you nerf somethink that cost some ******* much. atm there still about a bill each. in the last 2 year all ccp has been doing is ******* over the indy side of eve. "But," ccp says " we give a small boost to indy but **** you over in ever other way
Atomic Virulent
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#220 - 2016-12-08 01:12:28 UTC
nm Kain wrote:
It's pretty clear that everyone is against the kind of nerf you are planning... CCP at it's finest. This is absolutely disgusting. 32% is far too much.

My drones currently mine 1340m3, with the nerf that's 911m3, times that by 5, thats 6700m3 to 4555m3. Way to go to kill the mining community. We spend billions, are sitting ducks for 5 minutes and this isn't good enough?

I swear. I feel like quitting.

That's how angry I am. And they announce this days after I plex my accounts. Seriously considering not plexing my accounts after christmas.

Yeah. Me and a load of people are not happy.



Imagine spending 7 months of skilling just to FLY an Orca and an Iteron V and then having CCP fck you over by making it possible to fly both in less than 2 weeks. This is only the tip of the iceberg for the many ways CCP has screwed me over.

This however is beyond even their Icelandic douchebaggery. I have 13 accts and spent the last month and a half investing through ISK and skills to put some industrial gears into motion... This may just send me over the cliff for the last time.