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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Entosis and Faction Warfare

Author
Rigor Issier
Cresent Shade
#1 - 2016-10-01 17:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rigor Issier
Hello spavebros,

to start with, I really love EVE. EVE is still unique as a game and I hope that this monopoly will not destroy CCP in the long run.

But some times CCP gives me shakes of horror.. As I read the CSM minuites this sentence triggerd sad memornies of CCP destroying faction warfare with the deletion of battlecruiser size plexes:

"The CSM asked CCP how satisfied was with how the Entosis Link system worked out. CCP responded that they underestimated how much the change from firing weapons and doing damage to a pure timer system would impact the experience."

Everyone who flew in faction warfare knows that plexes in faction warfare are engagment filters. Faction warfare had its best time in the age of battlecruisers - due the the battlecruiser size plexes and the unrestricted plexes.

So, generally speaking, CCP did omit the filter option of faction warfare plexes and made entosis "orbiting a button". No one likes entosis - as no one in faction warfare loves "orbiting a button".

Faction warfare is all about PVP - only the farmers, thatt CCP made possible, do not grasp the simple concept of faction warfare: Fight!

The conclusion of this is, CCP really thought that the prominence of faction warfare came from "orbiting a button" and not a filter option to encourage more balanced fights. How horrible real this assumption is can be proven with the fact that CCP made farming in faction warfare more easy all the time.

So in EVE, a game focused on PVP, CCP does not understand that people want to fight.

Fighting against blobs in lame. Faction warfare plexes are the only real engagment filters in EVE.

Entosis forces a player to make his ship combat unworthy. This is anathema the the general princile of EVE - PVP,

Why did CCP copied the worst stuff from faction warfare and let the best part fall?

That is really hard to understand.

Today faction warfare is a wasteland. Few people roam - only svioul cancer gate camps are seen. Null sov will become the same, because no one wants to do entosis.

So why not make faction warfare great again and give it its proper engagement filters back?

And null sow - make it an exact copy of faction warfare as it did work. Null sov has the huges advantage that it must not tolerate farmers. Renters are farmers in a way, ok, but they have to pay their overlords their due - famers pay no one and only damage the game.

Or drop null sov as a whole and do the same in faction warfare, drop ownership of systems per faction and make faction warfare and pure combat zone. Citadells in null and faction warfare show ius that people do care for fights and not sov/ faction ownership.

CCP - why do you guys never als people that actually play the game?

Regards and 07
Arcturus Ursidae
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-10-01 18:56:03 UTC
Long way round of asking for battlecruiser sized gated complexes back.

I seem to remember from the change back then when FW was iterated in that it is not as simple as just adding in a new complex size, there are as many different sizes as the old complex sizes I think.

I actually found the CSM notes a little encouraging. FW is mentioned a few times especially in connection with new players and alpha accounts, farming was recognised as already being a problem.

Still hoping end of alliance tourney or EvE Vegas will bring news of some changes.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#3 - 2016-10-03 06:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
rigor +1 you are getting it.


If CCP would have kept iterating on FW they would have noticed the mistakes and would have learned from them before redesigning the nullsec sov.

The basic requirement before something can happen in eve are players doing things in space. FW lets players wait in space since capturing a plex involves holding the grid for a certain amount of time. That is the most basic form of domination game mode: "come at me bro, if not i make progress and you will lose progress" (in case of eve it is the system you lose). The players are the matchmaker, take a plex in a fleet and there is a chance that an equal or larger fleet forms, or stick to your solo ship.

The problem starts at the point what if the offender is exclusively there to annoy you and will not fight? Fighting farmers becomes suddenly only possible with more farmers (you have to waste time in a 1:1 ratio) and no conflict ever happens, all you would do is to run away all day.

The solution would be fairly simple and commonly implemented in other games: his/her progress should reset since the offender did not complete the capturing.

In FW that is not the case. That is the reason why stabs, cloaks, unfit ships, deplex trial accounts (soon: armies of alphas) etc are only a symptom of the faulty underlying mechanic, not the cause of the problem (they are pure convenience), the cause is that there is no roll back of the plex timer - your progress is persisted. With timer rollbacks stabs become meaningless since running away is LP inefficient.


Understanding this, you will also see that an entosis link, an item which will force you on grid, is basically overkill. CCP hoped that they can scale null sov like FW. Keeping the minimum requirement at 1 ship, while still allowing it to scale up to fleets. Structure bashes had the minimum requirement of a dps heavy fleet, which due its vulnerability is a content driver all by itself. Entosing is not fun for the same reasons as defending a minining op at a belt isn't (nobody does that). Escalating from a single entosis ship into a nullsec fleet fight is difficult, why are you not bashing the structure with a fleet in the first place - if you would plan an escalation you would need them ready anyway?


I expect null sov to disappear completely once more structure types are in the game and it will end up being a pure occupation mechanic.



its btw unlikely that anything FW related will happen any time soon:
Quote:
Gorski commented
that it would have been nice to have a Lowsec and Faction Warfare session, with
CCP Logibro replying that that session in particular was not put on the schedule as
the development team is unable to commit to anything in the shorter term and
Team Five-0 were already having a large number of meetings.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
Local Is Primary
#4 - 2016-10-03 13:08:41 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

its btw unlikely that anything FW related will happen any time soon:
Quote:
Gorski commented
that it would have been nice to have a Lowsec and Faction Warfare session, with
CCP Logibro replying that that session in particular was not put on the schedule as
the development team is unable to commit to anything in the shorter term and
Team Five-0 were already having a large number of meetings.


I'd love to know what metrics they look at when they decide what priorities they have?

Whilst I understand that divulging future changes drives market speculation they could take the time to outline a strategic long term plans for change in a general and vague way so that the might just keep people interested in parts of the game that appear to have no planned changes to hope for.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2016-10-03 19:13:56 UTC
You obviously do not live near Black Rise if you think FW is dead.

As for the CSM minutes let us all keep in mind that CURRENTLY this is CCP's logic (and I dare anyone to challenge it)

Importance:
Null > FW/LS

Amount of attention received:
Null > everything else combined (sorry but while there were specific considerations given to LS/WH space for citadels and capitals, 95-99% of the focus was an Null)

Where is CCP going to be focusing all their efforts on sending new players with the new alpha clones and the NPE?:
FW

The last change CCP made to FW was the added 2 or 3 webbing frigates in missions so they could not be solo'd in a bomber.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#6 - 2016-10-04 06:59:21 UTC
Quote:
people want to fight


Some people want to fight. Of those that do, 100% want to win. What often differentiates the winners from the losers is how far they are willing to go to achieve victory.

This simple fact is what led to the weaponising of farmers in FW. They were an issue long before they became a significant issue.

Quote:
This is anathema the the general princile of EVE - PVP


The word you're looking for is conflict, and it doesn't always involve shooting someone. Many of EVE's most memorable tales begin far from the battlefield, if they ever reach it at all.

Evasion in and of itself is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare. The problem is that it makes for dull gameplay, compounded by the staggering impact it has upon pre-existing mechanics; along with the unjustifiable rewards it generates and the ease with which they can be attained.

Quote:
So why not make faction warfare great again and give it its proper engagement filters back?


I really can't discern the point you're trying to make. You put forth several opinions and complain about a couple of mechanics, but never really make a single coherent argument. I assume you want to bring back BC-sized plexes. If they think this will fix FW, you're sorely mistaken.
Rigor Issier
Cresent Shade
#7 - 2016-10-04 15:16:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rigor Issier
If you want to fight in EVE - a game about PVP - the only place where you can get something like instant action is faction warfare.

If you do not want to get blobbed or hot dropped - the only place you can get an engagement filter is faction warfare.

Faction warfare is the model for null sec. Null sec never really worked. Faction warfare worked great - then the nerf hammer hit (the end of the age of battlecruisers).

So if faction warfare is the model for null sec faction warfare is important for EVE and CCP. This is a simple fact. If you want to copy sometthing (faction warfare) but kill it, and then copy the dead corpse (orbiting a button) to another place (null sec) you will only futher lessen the quality of you product (EVE).

To make my statement more clear: EVE needs more engagment filters for PVP and less entosis/ orbiting a button. EVE needs more fighting and less farming and renting!


I care for EVE and its health. Right now we see a peroid of decline and instability.


The only question is: Will CCP start to listen to their customers and provide the content their customers want?

PS.:

It is true that Black Rise has a bit of life left whereas the Bleak Lands are dead.

PSS.:

Conflict and evasion - only possilbe when you have an engagement filter.
Lotti
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-12-04 09:31:17 UTC
I'm always surprised how people still don't get this.

Everyone always wants PVP to the centerpiece of this game, and I agree it is the most fun part.

But it can never be the centerpiece because it is so easy to exploit. It's even easier now, you just get a free alpha account, join the opposing side and get free kills.

There will always need to be a PVE system as the main mechanic for SOV/FW/anything, otherwise players will exploit the hell out if it.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#9 - 2016-12-04 19:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Lotti wrote:
I'm always surprised how people still don't get this.

Everyone always wants PVP to the centerpiece of this game, and I agree it is the most fun part.

But it can never be the centerpiece because it is so easy to exploit. It's even easier now, you just get a free alpha account, join the opposing side and get free kills.

There will always need to be a PVE system as the main mechanic for SOV/FW/anything, otherwise players will exploit the hell out if it.


FW has missions, those are PVE.

If you see plexing as PVE it is the most stupid PVE ever implemented in any game known to men. You shoot a NPC every 2 minutes which does 0 damage to you to proof you are not a bot and run from any player you see. Or: just sit in a unfit ship at a large plex and deplex doing exactly nothing. If someone kills you, you respawn in the same system and warp back to the plex. Literally indistinguishable from being a bot. 0 player interaction. Less interaction than in mining.

The interesting part of plexing is a) the terrain, plexes give unique conditions for matchmaking and b) domination gameplay, hold the grid and you progress in war.

Your argument about alphas influencing pvp does not make any sense. Thats what everyone wants, more players participating in war, not running away in stabbed ships exploiting the system. Joining the winning side was never smart (unless you are a farmer of course), simply because you can't make progress anymore and you missing out on all the fun. You don't conquer space, you don't siege home systems, you only see that if you join the side which is on the offensive. Alphas are just perma trial accounts after all. We already had trial account deplexers for years - nothing new.



the concept of FW works perfectly fine, it just became worse with every year when players got better at exploiting the system. A system which could be easily repaired if ccp would not have abandoned FW years ago.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#10 - 2016-12-06 21:31:10 UTC
they should do away with sov altogether. make all stations npc controlled, let players use citadels and defense fleets to control their space and just leave it at that.
Vex Munda
Anti Enslavement Movement
#11 - 2016-12-13 19:47:15 UTC
I think the plexes are fine as they are. If you want more fights fit a t1 frigate and plenty of people will try to attack you in faction, t2 and pirate frigates. Sometimes they even attack with a t1 ship. That is much rarer however.

The issue is that there are too many places you can do complexes in. And people just move somewhere else if you bother them. I think a cool solution could be to only make complexes spawn in systems that border to another faction owned system. You would get a few systems with a good amount of fights: pirates and FW-folk would all go there. If you are on the losing side of a war your faction would be able to invade more systems because of the systems bordering your factions territory, allowing the 'guerilla' warfare that is now so common (a.k.a. farmers).