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A Proposed Revolution out of Moral Standings

Author
Jessica Washer
Washerswarmongers
#1 - 2016-12-02 18:58:49 UTC
On this day i call to all of you, whether we are brothers and sisters in blood or we are sworn enemies. I call to you to look towards hope and join me not as alliances or corporations or even coalitions, but as pilots. Those of these worlds who have the abilities and the rights to fly free from any governing body or master of any kind. I stand here as an individual representative of no one other than I, and i ask you all to stand with me in the mission to liberate as many captive souls in our systems as we can. It is an abomination in times such as ours that we still hold to the old tenements of slavery to accomplish our mighty deeds, and that we all stand by and let this continue. As a personal mission of mine as well as it should be yours i aim to free every last slave i come across no matter the cost to myself; whether that cost is meager Isk, a true flying ship, or even my life.

Choose to fly with this joyous mission in your hearts and your cockpits. Let us go down in the history of New Eden as the crusaders of freedom.


Fly true my Comrades.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#2 - 2016-12-02 19:28:35 UTC
Are there any circumstances that you would approve of people being held against their will?
Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
Drifters Stole My Local
#3 - 2016-12-02 20:36:00 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Are there any circumstances that you would approve of people being held against their will?


If they've committed a crime that can be proved to have created a victim.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#4 - 2016-12-02 20:43:07 UTC
Crusader of what, excuse me?! "Freedom?"
That force that brings no creation, but only destruction?
That force that destroys bonds, laws, rules, families and breaks friends apart?

Well, I honestly hope there will be no any brainwashed enough people to become freedom fanatics and zealots. Calling for peoples who would like to fight for freedom isn't better than recruiting to EOM on public comms.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#5 - 2016-12-02 20:48:25 UTC
Death to Concord! Or wait, death to Amarr! Wait, death to the Gallante and caldari! No, death to...... I dunno Sansha? Death to them all I guess....
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#6 - 2016-12-02 21:01:16 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Death to Concord! Or wait, death to Amarr! Wait, death to the Gallante and caldari! No, death to...... I dunno Sansha? Death to them all I guess....

We have enough Jasons and Osyns around already, could you stop it and maybe we could try to make IGS a serious place?..

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#7 - 2016-12-02 21:03:26 UTC
Right, so commenting on how it doesn't address who exactly were rising up against is trolling.... You were saying?
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#8 - 2016-12-02 21:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Under the definition of irony (or was that hypocrisy?) in the dictionary is a picture of Diana Kim... Roll

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2016-12-03 08:17:25 UTC
I call you to look for the God and seek love instead of destruction.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

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Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

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Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#10 - 2016-12-03 11:31:34 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Under the definition or irony (or was that hypocrisy?) in the dictionary is a picture of Diana Kim... Roll

Shall I send you a real dictionary so you could educate yourself what do these words actually mean before you say that sort of gibberish again?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

morion
Lighting Build
#11 - 2016-12-03 14:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: morion
Diana Kim wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Under the definition or irony (or was that hypocrisy?) in the dictionary is a picture of Diana Kim... Roll

Shall I send you a real dictionary so you could educate yourself what do these words actually mean before you say that sort of gibberish again?


Real dictionary ?
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-12-04 13:22:41 UTC
Oh God...
please forgive me for a bad word that I just thought about.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

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Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2016-12-04 16:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinjin Mokk
If you want to end slavery, you have to cut off the economic viability of slavery.

Slavery is very legal in the Amarr Empire for a variety of religious and economic reasons.

For economic and diplomatic reasons, Amarr slavery has been sanctioned by CONCORD. So therefore, the State, the Federation and yes, even the Republic, as CONCORD treaty signatories, also sanction the practice of slavery within Amarr. They all reap the benefits of a strong Amarr economy which has, at its foundation, a workforce made up of slaves. None of your governments is willing, let alone able, to stop the practice.

So don't moralize to us on the evils of slavery while you reap the benefits of slavery and pay taxes to your government and CONCORD who support the institution.

You don't like slavery? Don't own slaves.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2016-12-04 16:58:09 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

You don't like slavery? Don't own slaves.

I so agree with you on this! Too many people are so not happy with what we are doing. But if they aren't happy - they just don't need to do it themselves and they should let us live as we want so.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

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Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
Drifters Stole My Local
#15 - 2016-12-04 20:28:57 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Anabella Rella wrote:
Under the definition or irony (or was that hypocrisy?) in the dictionary is a picture of Diana Kim... Roll

Shall I send you a real dictionary so you could educate yourself what do these words actually mean before you say that sort of gibberish again?


Shall I send you a real dictionary so you could educate yourself what do these words actually mean before you say that sort of gibberish again?

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
Drifters Stole My Local
#16 - 2016-12-04 20:32:26 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:

You don't like slavery? Don't own slaves.

I so agree with you on this! Too many people are so not happy with what we are doing. But if they aren't happy - they just don't need to do it themselves and they should let us live as we want so.


The problem with that is that you are not allowing those under your enslavement to live as they want.

Enslavement of another human being requires one of two things.

1. The dehumanization of the enslaved, so that they are no longer also people who should be left to live as they want.

2. The empathetic ignorance of the enslaver, to be so separated from the plight of the enslaved that they don't even realize what enslavement entails, and that, ironically, what they complain about when others demand the end of slavery, those whom they enslave also complain about to them (and have a much better argument because their living standards are actually affected).

I recognize that some slavers treat their slaves well and do not abuse them, but this doesn't detract from the fact that even you, Luna, believe it a moral imperative that you be left alone to do as you please. The same is true of the enslaved, they have no less right to self-determination than you.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
Drifters Stole My Local
#17 - 2016-12-04 20:43:10 UTC
Sinjin, nearly every economist in the cluster besides those sponsored by the Amarr government will tell you that slavery as an economic institution weakens the Amarrian economy, which keeps up with the others in terms of GDP by sheer population size alone. Compare that to the Gallente, who have a similar sized economy with significantly fewer people, why is that? Automation via drones, yes, but every other empire other compared to Amarr has a higher economic output per person than Amarr, and this is easy to reason why when you realize that slaves are essentially left out of the measurable economy of the country besides their value as an input to production. They are not consumers, so their economic value is severely underutilized. This is almost not even debated anymore in Amarr. Even in Amarr the argument has become the religious one. I studied economics at Caille as an exchange student in Amarr and wrote at length about this in my dissertation. I can link you to a more theoretical version of the arguments I made, from it, on the Summit a few months back.. (I didn't want to bombard people on the Summit with giant graphs, equations, and charts, which I always found dull and meaningless anyway).

That is, assuming I have the patience to find them.

Amarr does not hold slaves, as a country, because it economically benefits Amarr. It actually hurts Amarr. The only person who benefits economically is the Holder. It holds back the country as a whole. By and large, there are three reasons the Amarr continue to hold slaves, in terms of their internal politics.

1. Their religion sanctions and arguably demands it, and their religion is the most central part of their identity.
2. Their traditions sanction and arguably demand it, and their traditions are the second most central part of their identity.
3. The Holders have an immense amount of political capital and influence within Imperial politics, as a class. At every level of government, what they want and what is good for them tends to become dictated in law, assuming it does not conflict heavily with 1 (religion) and 2 (tradition). This is why the Holders as a class are very religious and very traditional. It's part of the rules of the game they play which keeps them in power. It's where their incentives lie. Sure, there are many Holders who truly believe they are doing what is best for humanity. But it is not a coincidence that these incentives all line up so remarkably well.

That is why slavery continues to exist in Amarr.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#18 - 2016-12-05 00:29:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
It's a bit incorrect to say that slaves aren't consumers. Slaves purchase goods and food like anyone, but there are stricter regulations on what is permitted, how highly-priced it is, and what form of payment the slave may use. Most slaves aren't in control of their own finances, but they still generally receive stipends for private purchases. Though, a lot of the time the purchased goods are considered legally under the ownership of the Holder rather than the slave, so that can skew the statistics a bit.

This all does still limit the free market, of course.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#19 - 2016-12-05 00:34:03 UTC
What she said. There's obviously a lot of differences between different regions, but slaves aren't entirely locked out of being consumers. I'd actually argue that overwhelming consumerism as seen in the Federation in particular and in the Republic and State to a lesser degree have their own significant drawbacks.

However, this does not really change that his point is more or less correct when it comes to the economy of a nation that rooted in the practices of slavery.
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-12-05 15:53:18 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:

The problem with that is that you are not allowing those under your enslavement to live as they want.

Why we should? Do you want to let your infants to live as they want without intervention, without giving them education, food, and so on? You are a terrible man for having such a thought.

Jason Galente wrote:

Enslavement of another human being requires one of two things.

1. The dehumanization of the enslaved, so that they are no longer also people who should be left to live as they want.

There is no dehumanization in being enslaved. It counter-wise teaches them to be more humane, it makes us more humane for picking others under our care. Their lives won't be lost anymore, their souls will be guided, their bodies will be cared about. Dehumanization is tearing slaves away from the owners and leaving them be by themselves. Alone. Uncared. Unguided. Like grabbing infants and dropping them out from window into the dirty road under the rain for them to care about themselves alone.

Jason Galente wrote:

2. The empathetic ignorance of the enslaver, to be so separated from the plight of the enslaved that they don't even realize what enslavement entails, and that, ironically, what they complain about when others demand the end of slavery, those whom they enslave also complain about to them (and have a much better argument because their living standards are actually affected).

Have you ever had any slaver friends? Why you insult them claiming they are empathetically ignorant? Do you realize that to have a slave and care about them brings way more empathy than you can imagine. It is like having a children for a mother. It is like having students for a teacher. Children do complain a lot about strict parents, but it doesn't mean parents don't love their children.

Jason Galente wrote:

I recognize that some slavers treat their slaves well and do not abuse them, but this doesn't detract from the fact that even you, Luna, believe it a moral imperative that you be left alone to do as you please. The same is true of the enslaved, they have no less right to self-determination than you.

Do you recognize as well that some parents treat their children well and do not abuse them? Or you just use such argument to troll Amarr because of our institution that you don't understand?

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

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