These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Maybe Alphas should have Cloaking I
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Valkyrie Harkonnen
Doomheim
#121 - 2016-11-24 02:10:43 UTC
They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game.

If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do.

Try EVE Online for FREE with 250.000 extra skill points here!
Blix Sativa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2016-11-24 03:55:34 UTC
Natural CloneKiller wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?

--

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else.



Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage.


Can't players afk scout either way? Have a trash alpha char just sit in a pod near the gate? Oh well if it gets popped... you lost what... the time it took to fly it there? You still get your recon intel.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#123 - 2016-11-24 04:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Natural CloneKiller wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:


--

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

edit2 - Another interesting suggestion is a 1 minute cloak. Such a cloak would be useful for getting past camps, and not much else.



Do not be stupid. You are asking for afk scouts. Bad bad blond...get back in your cage.


Don't quote me where I cite limitations that eliminate afk scouts and then insult me. Read. The problem isn't my suggestion. The problem is people having knee-jerk reactions without even making an effort to think about it.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#124 - 2016-11-25 06:46:00 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Considering you could build a computer for less than a 1 month sub to EvE and get a cloaky camper for ever, yes a lot of people would do it. All you need is one of those cheap second hand/recycling places and your set.

As to permabans possibly but people always have used expolits/bots in the past and I am sure some still do. Giving a free account cloaking is just asking for trouble.


It is amazing how many Eve players understand opportunity cost when it comes to minerals, but completely fail in applying it anywhere else. Yes, I am going to spend my time building and money a 1-2 dozen el-cheapo PCs simply to cloaky camp systems in an t1 frig with a prototype cloak. And in fact dozens and even hundreds of people are going to do this because they have literally nothing better to do with that money or their time. Sure.

This is the type of reasoning behind every single instance where people light their hair on fire over minor changes.

Oh, and I presume if this change were to go in to effect you'll be one of the people doing it. Right?


Actually what about the pure lost revenue from CCPs point of view. All those players that currently do pay for cloaky camper alts.

Hell it would be worth building a few computers for every player in Null just to keep the other alliances off balance by having cloaky campers in their main solar systems. Now there is an opportunity cost, spend bugger all making a cheap computer and get months of entertainment watching nullbears wet them selves or not spend a tiny amount of money. I would vote for scaring the crap out of enemy alliances.

If I had a route in Null or lo I traveled often would I set up a cloaked scout in them and activate them before I go through with cargo? Hell yeah, again spending the time building 8-10 computers so I had a safe path is worth the time and effort.

Then you have the biggest reason for CCP not to allow things like cloaking on Alphas, the more they get the less likely they are to pay.

Someone wanting to AFK cloaky everywhere wouldn't even have to build total systems. They could instead run several Intel Compute Sticks and virtual desktop them all. There's some technical stuff to do for that to work, but it would be a lot less clutter, and no checking for virtual machines would catch this because Compute Sticks are actual physical (if tiny and slow) computers.

With the current price of compute sticks, subscribing for a year for each alt would be cheaper.

A signature :o
Blix Sativa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2016-11-25 20:19:12 UTC
So if afk cloaking is an issue it needs to be handled in another way...

Afk cloaking shouldn't be an advantage you get just because someone is willing to spend a bunch of money.

There should be mechanics in place that require your interaction, instead of limitting WHO can have them.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2016-11-25 20:27:28 UTC
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game.

If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do.


Can I have a taste of capital piloting on my alpha clone please? It's part of everything after all.
Blix Sativa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#127 - 2016-11-25 21:14:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
They should have a taste of everything in the game. PI, Cloacking, etc. Make it extremely limited, create special skills for alphas so it doesn't mess the game.

If they like it they will subscribe to have the not gimp version of what they like more to do.


Can I have a taste of capital piloting on my alpha clone please? It's part of everything after all.



Lets not get carried away... comparing something that is a part of quality of life vs something that would take over a year of training.Blink
Salvos Rhoska
#128 - 2016-11-25 22:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Blix Sativa wrote:
So if afk cloaking is an issue it needs to be handled in another way...

Afk cloaking shouldn't be an advantage you get just because someone is willing to spend a bunch of money.

There should be mechanics in place that require your interaction, instead of limitting WHO can have them.


That mechanic is called Omega.
Inorder to interact as an Omega with EVE, you must sub.

Otherwise you must interact with EVE as an Alpha.

This is the one place in the known universe where its better to be an Omega, than an Alpha.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#129 - 2016-11-27 19:10:22 UTC
If any of us here is to suggest a time limit on a cloak module for use in alpha clones, we have to carefully evaluate how they would be balanced first to avoid obvious exploitation by Eve Online players. Remember, before anyone here makes a suggestion, ask yourselves "how can I exploit this?"

The suggestion about time limits seems like an old idea originally brought on LOOOOOOONG before the idea of Free to Play even touched the minds of CCP Developers years ago. It was the result of many complaints from null-sec dwellers wanting to address AFK cloaky scouts that just sneak into their system unwanted and just sit in a safe space (I mean spot) while cloaked for hours on end. The pilot is probably fapping to Rule 34 Overwatch images while his Tristan is sitting in null-sec causing a major inconvenience to their local operations out fear that he/she might be a cyno alt.

Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes.

But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-11-27 19:24:59 UTC
The problem will be to limit the cloaking while keeping it possible to do what you wanted to do in the first place. a 1 minute cloak would allow the MWD trick but it will get you nothing when using it for exploration. IMHO it's okay to keep the cloak from Alphas because the hassle to give them some faulty cloak just to give them some cloak is just not worth it. Alpha is an extended trial and so it has it's limits. Live with it or go omega.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2016-11-27 20:46:16 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
If any of us here is to suggest a time limit on a cloak module for use in alpha clones, we have to carefully evaluate how they would be balanced first to avoid obvious exploitation by Eve Online players. Remember, before anyone here makes a suggestion, ask yourselves "how can I exploit this?"

The suggestion about time limits seems like an old idea originally brought on LOOOOOOONG before the idea of Free to Play even touched the minds of CCP Developers years ago. It was the result of many complaints from null-sec dwellers wanting to address AFK cloaky scouts that just sneak into their system unwanted and just sit in a safe space (I mean spot) while cloaked for hours on end. The pilot is probably fapping to Rule 34 Overwatch images while his Tristan is sitting in null-sec causing a major inconvenience to their local operations out fear that he/she might be a cyno alt.

Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes.

But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system.



Or add cloak fatigue as a modifier with the timer
Carl Kowalski
Doomheim
#132 - 2016-11-28 08:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Carl Kowalski
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
...

Putting a 1-minute timer as originally suggested seems like an OK plan to address this, but any cloaky pilot who has half a brain can just check in every 50-55 seconds to restart their cloak cycle. A counter to this would be to simply add a cooldown timer that lasts long enough to discourage AFK cloaks forcing them to constantly stay on the move in the system to avoid getting pinpointed by combat probes.

But this might not be enough because the cloaky scout has the advantage of never getting pinpointed as long as they pay close attention. The alternative then would be to create an alpha-grade cloak module that requires charges to perform and maintain its function. Since frigates don't often have a lot of cargo space and some of that space is needed to carry ammo if needed, this will limit the total time the player is cloaked inside the system. Once they're out of charges to use on the cloak, they have to either constantly warp between safe spots for a very long time or get the hell out of the system.


I don't think that theres is anything wrong with getting an advantage by active play.

Maybe you should read my proposal in Post 112:
This basic cloak could have the following attributes:
- needs cloaking I
- when activated cloaks ship for 1 minute
- reactivation delay of 5 minutes
- when player logged off cloaked, on login the reactivation timer starts at 5 minutes
- maybe lower the speed malus a bit, so that this cloak is a viable option for travel fits of omega players too

All the numbers are to be discussed. But this should help alphas getting out of gate camps and bubbles, and avoid the creation of cloaky campers. Aditionally alphas aren't allowed to train Cynosural Field Theory, so only intel, but no reinforcement.

Maybe I am missing a lot of experience and creativity, but how can this be abused?

Looking for assignment: have missiles, will travel ...
Vigirr
#133 - 2016-11-28 08:55:48 UTC
ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts.

Gee, who'd have thought.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#134 - 2016-11-29 06:15:52 UTC
Cloaking is a very powerful ability to have. By itself it does nothing, but it enables a wide range of collaborative gameplay options.

It might be reasonable to have a module or two which fill some of the several actions performed by cloaks. For example, a module which removes or limits a ships visibility to directional scanning. I'm sure we could think of some fun drawbacks to include with that.

Another module would be immunity or greater resistance to combat probing. Again, this is bundled into the cloak for whatever reason.

I shouldn't pretend to understand any of it. Rather, just accept it as it is and plan accordingly.
Lucy Lollipops
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2016-11-29 07:49:57 UTC
Even without cloak available for Alphas I noticed a very big change in the wh where I live from the expansion:

Several more ships inside all time, every spawned relic/data done in less than half an hour, basically a heavy farmed wormhole.

I dunno if it's coincidence or not, but when there is no alpha inside there is some omega inside.

My personal opinion is that every explorer is desperately looking for relic/data sites because alphas are laready depleting/farming them all time.

If Aplhas have cloak I think we'll have several in each wormhole...
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#136 - 2016-11-29 14:04:32 UTC
Vigirr wrote:
ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts.

Gee, who'd have thought.


ITT. People who didn't read the thread making sweeping statements about the thread.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#137 - 2016-11-29 14:07:38 UTC
no.
For obvious reasons.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#138 - 2016-11-29 18:07:33 UTC
Cloaky Alphas = " Look mom unlimited scouts and campers!"
Vigirr
#139 - 2016-11-30 07:26:23 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Vigirr wrote:
ITT: vet alts pretending to be new players in order to push an agenda so they can have more useful, and free, alts.

Gee, who'd have thought.


ITT. People who didn't read the thread making sweeping statements about the thread.


Explain how this idea won't result in lots of vets having an alpha cloaky scout on a secondary laptop.