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Dear CCP, Re: Hulk fitting

First post
Author
Siigari Kitawa
Weave
#1 - 2016-11-27 19:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Siigari Kitawa
Hey CCP. I just was looking at the new Pyfa earlier and was messing around with fits. When I tried to fit out a Hulk and was a bit blown away when I realized I couldn't fit it the way I used to any longer.

So then I checked, and there is a 28 page threadnought in Upcoming Feedback.

Did you miss the feedback, or ignore it?

Hulks fitted to fill their slots can no longer support all their midslots without upwards of a billion ISK fit, or a failfit.

Here is an example of a fit that should work:


[Hulk, Ice]

Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Medium Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II
Survey Scanner II

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

CPU: 393.7/337.5 (116.66%)
Grid: 48/43.75 (+9.71%)

The Hulk should be able to fit itself a tank without sacrificing an absurd amount of slots for rigs or upgrades. The 6 extra CPU that the Ice Harvester uses over the Modulated Strip kills it by an insane amount.

Either whack the Ice Harvester's CPU usage, up the ship CPU slightly and give it its 5 grid back, or just give the ship more CPU and Grid.

I don't understand why it takes full faction with storyline Ingeniis to fit a Hulk with a tank.


edited for clarity

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-11-27 19:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Did you not read the very first post in the thread you linked?

Including this bolder part:

The overall mining yields of the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever, and Mackinaw remain unchanged after this pass. The Covetor and Hulk will gain a lowslot which allows some new options and the potential of greater yield (although fittings will be appropriately tight when using three MLUs).

If you want the extra yield that the additional low slot enables, then nerf the tank. Otherwise take tank, but don't gain the extra yield. Choices.

Additionally that thread, which is the official comments thread for those changes, is still open. Why did this need its own thread in GD?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-11-27 19:59:09 UTC
This is because the hulk is designed to have little tank.

It goes Hulk no tank
Mack little tank
Skiff Massive tank

The problem is easy to fix, either be greedy and have no tank or compromise a bit and have a tank the size of a battle ship.

After all the extra you get in cycle time will still take a lot of hours to cover the cost of a hulk after it goes boom. Big smile

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Siigari Kitawa
Weave
#4 - 2016-11-27 21:49:32 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Did you not read the very first post in the thread you linked?

You mean the thread with no dev replies?

Yeah I read it.

We're very interested in your feedback and welcome you to try out the new stats (and new ship models) on SISI.
Thanks!


Interested in feedback. That means CCP wants to hear what we have to say. But they apparently ignored it.

My qualm is that there is not a reason to have a ship like the Hulk which is designed to be the haut de gamme of mining not be able to support itself. Previously it was a tight fit, but a tank was possible. Sure it wasn't an all-star tank but it was at least a shield booster, invul and a hardener.

Now I'm losing hards and putting on amps, which I can live with, but I CANNOT squeeze them on. Again, if I go Ingeniis I can, but that shows the flaw is really in the Ice Harvesters using 66 CPU instead of 60.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#5 - 2016-11-27 22:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Did you not read the very first post in the thread you linked?

You mean the thread with no dev replies?

Yeah I read it.

We're very interested in your feedback and welcome you to try out the new stats (and new ship models) on SISI.
Thanks!


Interested in feedback. That means CCP wants to hear what we have to say. But they apparently ignored it.

My qualm is that there is not a reason to have a ship like the Hulk which is designed to be the haut de gamme of mining not be able to support itself. Previously it was a tight fit, but a tank was possible. Sure it wasn't an all-star tank but it was at least a shield booster, invul and a hardener.

Now I'm losing hards and putting on amps, which I can live with, but I CANNOT squeeze them on. Again, if I go Ingeniis I can, but that shows the flaw is really in the Ice Harvesters using 66 CPU instead of 60.


The third "new" lowslot allow for more options of customizations, not just more yield, the yield is unchanged wiht 2 MLU from before the changes.

And no, Hulk is not the "better" mining barge, its the one that can mine more than the others, but has to rely on support, including haulers and combat ships or a porpoise to defend it, so the tank can't be anything serious if you put 3 MLU in there, and even with 2 MLU it will stay fragile, which is fine.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6 - 2016-11-27 22:37:59 UTC
[Hulk, Unnamed loadout]
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Domination Thermal Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
ML-3 Scoped Survey Scanner
Small Clarity Ward Booster I

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Small Core Defense Field Extender II


Fits with a 4% CPU implant. Use a 5% implant if you insist a better booster, or even a medium extender. Yes, it'll cost a few extre ISK (although not a great deal more than a fully T2 fitted Hulk) - but if you want absolutely maxed yield then you have to make trade-offs somewhere; in this case, since you don't want to sacrifice tank, then it's cost.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Hrist Harkonnen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-11-27 22:52:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[Hulk, Unnamed loadout]
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Domination Thermal Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
ML-3 Scoped Survey Scanner
Small Clarity Ward Booster I

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Small Core Defense Field Extender II


Fits with a 4% CPU implant. Use a 5% implant if you insist a better booster, or even a medium extender. Yes, it'll cost a few extre ISK (although not a great deal more than a fully T2 fitted Hulk) - but if you want absolutely maxed yield then you have to make trade-offs somewhere; in this case, since you don't want to sacrifice tank, then it's cost.



Nice fit.
Siigari Kitawa
Weave
#8 - 2016-11-27 23:54:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
[Hulk, Unnamed loadout]
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Domination Thermal Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
ML-3 Scoped Survey Scanner
Small Clarity Ward Booster I

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Small Core Defense Field Extender II


Fits with a 4% CPU implant. Use a 5% implant if you insist a better booster, or even a medium extender. Yes, it'll cost a few extre ISK (although not a great deal more than a fully T2 fitted Hulk) - but if you want absolutely maxed yield then you have to make trade-offs somewhere; in this case, since you don't want to sacrifice tank, then it's cost.

Nice fit. Sadly the 4% CPU implant isn't an option for me at least, because I run omegas in slot 6.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

Brigadine Ferathine
506 Irregulars
#9 - 2016-11-28 00:02:43 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Did you not read the very first post in the thread you linked?

You mean the thread with no dev replies?

Yeah I read it.

We're very interested in your feedback and welcome you to try out the new stats (and new ship models) on SISI.
Thanks!


Interested in feedback. That means CCP wants to hear what we have to say. But they apparently ignored it.

My qualm is that there is not a reason to have a ship like the Hulk which is designed to be the haut de gamme of mining not be able to support itself. Previously it was a tight fit, but a tank was possible. Sure it wasn't an all-star tank but it was at least a shield booster, invul and a hardener.

Now I'm losing hards and putting on amps, which I can live with, but I CANNOT squeeze them on. Again, if I go Ingeniis I can, but that shows the flaw is really in the Ice Harvesters using 66 CPU instead of 60.

That's why I don't waste my time with those threads, its obvious they don't read them. Those threads exist to take away the voice of the people who don't approve of things.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#10 - 2016-11-28 01:36:10 UTC
I have no pity for dumb asses that fit full yield and cry about no tank.

My staple was the Macki and I had no problem tanking it. I gained all of 5 minutes on the hour by killing my tank. If that level of minutiae puts you out, do other stuff.

CCP: Make rigs that increase speeds on tractor beams. Then people can cry when they lose to NPC garbage because they crippled their tanks. for a 3 second increase in 'productivity'.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#11 - 2016-11-28 01:54:23 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Interested in feedback. That means CCP wants to hear what we have to say. But they apparently ignored it.

They always disregard certain parts of feedback, especially feedback that is a direct contradiction to the design purpose they already outlined.

That and it's usually impossible for them to adopt all feedback, since the feedback is also often conflicting from different players.
Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Pandemic Legion
#12 - 2016-11-28 03:47:16 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Hey CCP. I just was looking at the new Pyfa earlier and was messing around with fits. When I tried to fit out a Hulk and was a bit blown away when I realized I couldn't fit it the way I used to any longer.

So then I checked, and there is a 28 page threadnought in Upcoming Feedback.

Did you miss the feedback, or ignore it?

Hulks fitted to fill their slots can no longer support all their midslots without upwards of a billion ISK fit, or a failfit.

Here is an example of a fit that should work:


[Hulk, Ice]

Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Medium Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermal Dissipation Amplifier II
Survey Scanner II

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

CPU: 393.7/337.5 (116.66%)
Grid: 48/43.75 (+9.71%)

The Hulk should be able to fit itself a tank without sacrificing an absurd amount of slots for rigs or upgrades. The 6 extra CPU that the Ice Harvester uses over the Modulated Strip kills it by an insane amount.

Either whack the Ice Harvester's CPU usage, up the ship CPU slightly and give it its 5 grid back, or just give the ship more CPU and Grid.

I don't understand why it takes full faction with storyline Ingeniis to fit a Hulk with a tank.


edited for clarity


I had the same problem. I fly amarr ships and i want max dps and decent tank, but they dont give us enough lowslots. We should increase the max lowslots to 15 so that i can have 4 heat sinks, 3 drone damage control units and use the rest for tank.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
#13 - 2016-11-28 04:21:21 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:


I had the same problem. I fly amarr ships and i want max dps and decent tank, but they dont give us enough lowslots. We should increase the max lowslots to 15 so that i can have 4 heat sinks, 3 drone damage control units and use the rest for tank.


yup, same with my atron, i want more tank on this and more damage, why not put 20 low slots, 20 high slots with 20 turret hard points, 20M MW for PG, 20M tf for CPU so that i can fit 20 blasters and all the damage and armor modules in this.

i don't want to use any ship other ship, i want to use 1 ship and 1 ship only!!! the f if this ship is designed for speed, all ship should be able to tank and kill all the things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just Add Water

Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#14 - 2016-11-28 04:48:07 UTC
First off, you're using a Hulk to mine ICE. The Mackinaw is the KING of ICE MINING if you want to maximize yield in the ice department.

But if you want overall yield for anything, then you have to make a trade off. That simple. You can't have it both ways unless you include a support ship that can help you with either tank or yield boosts. I mined ore for years in all exhumer ships. If I wanted a tanked miner I bring out the Skiff. If I wanted to fly a jet can with an engine or just generally mine ice belts I bring out the Mackinaw. If I want pure yield I bring out the Hulk if I had a partner with me or I don't mind docking and undocking so frequently due to the Hulk's cargo hold.

Regardless of which ship I pick I have to deal with tradeoffs.
SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#15 - 2016-11-28 06:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
First off, you're using a Hulk to mine ICE. The Mackinaw is the KING of ICE MINING if you want to maximize yield in the ice department.


I like the fact that you've opted to couple this outdated-by-four-years shitpost with a tone of arrogant disdain.

If you're just talking about the hold size, nobody said anything about solo, so that's pretty irrelevant.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2016-11-28 07:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[Hulk, Unnamed loadout]
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II
Ice Harvester Upgrade II

Domination Thermal Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
ML-3 Scoped Survey Scanner
Small Clarity Ward Booster I

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I
Small Core Defense Field Extender II


Fits with a 4% CPU implant. Use a 5% implant if you insist a better booster, or even a medium extender. Yes, it'll cost a few extre ISK (although not a great deal more than a fully T2 fitted Hulk) - but if you want absolutely maxed yield then you have to make trade-offs somewhere; in this case, since you don't want to sacrifice tank, then it's cost.

Nice fit. Sadly the 4% CPU implant isn't an option for me at least, because I run omegas in slot 6.


I'm not aware of any pirate implant sets that increase yield. Either you're focused on maximum output or you aren't. If you aren't, then you can drop an IHU and fit your Hulk easily. If you are, then you should be aware that you can swap clones within a citadel with no jump clone timer. You've been playing EVE long enough to know that there will always be - and must be tradeoffs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Siigari Kitawa
Weave
#17 - 2016-11-28 08:13:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I'm not aware of any pirate implant sets that increase yield. Either you're focused on maximum output or you aren't. If you aren't, then you can drop an IHU and fit your Hulk easily. If you are, then you should be aware that you can swap clones within a citadel with no jump clone timer. You've been playing EVE long enough to know that there will always be - and must be tradeoffs.

Sure, and that is totally fair.

Historically I used something along the lines of Crystals + Michi (slot 7) + Slot 10 Ice/Ore. It kinda makes sense for the crystal set, especially back when I was in null and could active tank a belt full of battleship rats.

Dunno. I guess I will adapt to the changes, I just wish they'd lay off the CPU on the Ice Harvesters a bit.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

mkint
#18 - 2016-11-28 14:03:07 UTC
huh. Miners think they ought to get a solopwnmobile too.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#19 - 2016-11-28 16:33:26 UTC
mkint wrote:
huh. Miners think they ought to get a solopwnmobile too.


Renaming my Skiff to Solopwnmobile!

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2016-11-28 18:03:40 UTC
mkint wrote:
huh. Miners think they ought to get a solopwnmobile too.


Well the Orca does a pretty good job there.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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