These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Newbie question on courier contract collateral
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tatanka Startamer
Rio Nova
#1 - 2016-11-18 22:12:47 UTC
Hey folks, recently returned alpha clone here, I played for a few months in 2013/14.

Looking at the ships I'm allowed to fly as an alpha, and being cash poor since I spent most of my liquid ISK before wrapping things up in '14, I decided to do distro missions for a bit, since I can fly my Tayra, and have good faction in several places.

Anyway, last night, remembered something about courier contracts, and figured out how to find them, and decided to try a bit of that. Did manage to fill my first contract, and made a little more than L4 distro missions, so it's all good.

But here are my questions. I noticed a LOT of courier contracts with VERY high collateral requirements (multiple billions) which I obviously couldn't touch. Being well-versed enough in the EVE ethos from last time, I quickly wondered if this was part of a scam, since these were relatively small cargos. Anyway, the first question is, when originating a courier contract, does EVE pick the collateral amount, based on current prices, or does the player pick it? And if it's player picked, should one assume these very large collateral requirements are part of a scam? And if so, what could be the nature of the scam? Only one I can think of is a trap at the destination, so you lose the cargo, and the collateral. But these were hi-sec only routes, so I assume that makes the trap scam less likely.

The other question is, I saw a lot of courier contracts with rewards that were very small compared to the collateral requirement (saw 200K reward for 5B collateral). Why make rewards so low? If it's miniscule compared to collateral, it smells of a scam. If it's tiny in absolute terms, who would be bothered? You can make ~80-200K ISK per jump just from missions. Are these serious contracts people think will be fulfilled, or are they scamming, or just playing with people?

Thanks,

Tat
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#2 - 2016-11-18 22:34:21 UTC
Tatanka Startamer wrote:
But here are my questions. I noticed a LOT of courier contracts with VERY high collateral requirements (multiple billions) which I obviously couldn't touch. Being well-versed enough in the EVE ethos from last time, I quickly wondered if this was part of a scam, since these were relatively small cargos. Anyway, the first question is, when originating a courier contract, does EVE pick the collateral amount, based on current prices, or does the player pick it? And if it's player picked, should one assume these very large collateral requirements are part of a scam? And if so, what could be the nature of the scam? Only one I can think of is a trap at the destination, so you lose the cargo, and the collateral. But these were hi-sec only routes, so I assume that makes the trap scam less likely.

The other question is, I saw a lot of courier contracts with rewards that were very small compared to the collateral requirement (saw 200K reward for 5B collateral). Why make rewards so low? If it's miniscule compared to collateral, it smells of a scam. If it's tiny in absolute terms, who would be bothered? You can make ~80-200K ISK per jump just from missions. Are these serious contracts people think will be fulfilled, or are they scamming, or just playing with people?


The player picks the collateral amount. It can be much too high (or much too low).

Low volume and high collateral does not inherently mean it's a scam. A stack of PLEX, say, is low volume and high value. It is, however, somewhat suggestive - but there's nothing stopping the scammer padding one out.

You are correct that the scam involves a trap en route; hisec or no, in EVE you can be attacked at any time. It is well worth the issuer burning up a few Catalysts to get your billions of collateral. The obvious first countermeasure (besides not doing them) is to move the package with an alt.

Some contracts do have very low rewards and very high collateral (and some just have very low rewards). Scamming aside, these are posted because there is a constant supply of useful idiots willing to do them. I've been known to be one of those useful idiots myself (only on the low reward, low collateral side) - it's lousy ISK but I have plenty of ISK, and it gets you out to fly around a bit.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-11-18 23:05:07 UTC
Tatanka Startamer wrote:
Hey folks, recently returned alpha clone here, I played for a few months in 2013/14.

Looking at the ships I'm allowed to fly as an alpha, and being cash poor since I spent most of my liquid ISK before wrapping things up in '14, I decided to do distro missions for a bit, since I can fly my Tayra, and have good faction in several places.

Anyway, last night, remembered something about courier contracts, and figured out how to find them, and decided to try a bit of that. Did manage to fill my first contract, and made a little more than L4 distro missions, so it's all good.

But here are my questions. I noticed a LOT of courier contracts with VERY high collateral requirements (multiple billions) which I obviously couldn't touch. Being well-versed enough in the EVE ethos from last time, I quickly wondered if this was part of a scam, since these were relatively small cargos. Anyway, the first question is, when originating a courier contract, does EVE pick the collateral amount, based on current prices, or does the player pick it? And if it's player picked, should one assume these very large collateral requirements are part of a scam? And if so, what could be the nature of the scam? Only one I can think of is a trap at the destination, so you lose the cargo, and the collateral. But these were hi-sec only routes, so I assume that makes the trap scam less likely.

The other question is, I saw a lot of courier contracts with rewards that were very small compared to the collateral requirement (saw 200K reward for 5B collateral). Why make rewards so low? If it's miniscule compared to collateral, it smells of a scam. If it's tiny in absolute terms, who would be bothered? You can make ~80-200K ISK per jump just from missions. Are these serious contracts people think will be fulfilled, or are they scamming, or just playing with people?

Thanks,

Tat


High collaterals are fine. People often over-collateralize their contracts so that they have a slight buffer if something goes wrong, and for some reason or another the price increases for the item they wanted to haul. There are also many things that cost a lot of isk despite being small, like Faction modules or implants.

Low reward is fine, too. People are naturally stingy, and dont want to pay too much. Infact, it would be the opposite, if it were a scam. People would offer over-the-top rewards just to catch greedy idiots.

The main thing to watch out for with Scam Hauling Contracts, is the completion time. If they only give you 1 day to complete it, its most likely a scam.

Also, watch out for citadels being the end-station. Some Citadels do not have docking rights set to public, and therefore you will not be able to fulfill the contract, and lose your collateral.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#4 - 2016-11-19 03:13:21 UTC
If you are doing courier contracts, you will be competing with massive numbers of useful idiots that also do them.

The only way to compete with a useful idiot is to be more of an idiot (with the nature of courier contracts it's impossible to compete by being more useful as there's not really gradation - you either accept the contract or you do not).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tatanka Startamer
Rio Nova
#5 - 2016-11-19 04:22:33 UTC
Thanks for the answers, all.

As far as being able to compete, there just aren't enough jobs to make it a full time gig. I did, however, find 2 jobs worth doing, so for me, it's just something to do between distro missions. Once I build up some ISK, I'll find something better to do.

"The only way to compete with a useful idiot is to be more of an idiot" - or, don't try to compete. I can scan the contracts now and then while running distro missions. I can take only the contracts that pay better.

Tat
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#6 - 2016-11-19 06:09:13 UTC
There actually are a lot of jobs available.

I post a lot of them, and I post a lot less than many other players.

Incidentally, I used to post scam courier contracts often, but have since come to the conclusion that I can make more money out of legit contracts - mostly buying goods in Jita and reselling in Dodixie.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
L Abrat
Deos Inter Sidera
#7 - 2016-11-19 07:13:31 UTC
Look around a bit ( more regions, not just in Jita )
I use a lot of "new players" ( by the looks who runs them )

Many traders are to lazy to do there own courier jobs :)
I even do couriers in the same system * very , very lazy *

I have the guideline, must fit in a "badger" , 100k isk/jump ( double when the pickup is in lowsec )
Collateral is rarely over 100m , usually in the 15 - 50 m range.
( must be still worth it to be moved for me :) )

Look outside Jita or Amarr , and when you figur out who sets a lot of contracts..
Add them to your "search for job of player...." list.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#8 - 2016-11-19 16:28:43 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
Low reward is fine, too. People are naturally stingy, and dont want to pay too much. Infact, it would be the opposite, if it were a scam. People would offer over-the-top rewards just to catch greedy idiots.


Not so. There's always the risk the mark will complete it - they might get lucky, be skilled, run it on an alt, accept and run it when you're not around, etc. The higher the rewards get, the greater the risk of running a loss if people who know what they're doing start picking up the scam contracts.

Of course this doesn't apply to the case (common these days) where the destination is an undockable citadel. There you can indeed offer a fat reward... but a citadel's a big investment just to fleece people on contract collateral.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-11-21 16:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Solonius Rex
Areen Sassel wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Low reward is fine, too. People are naturally stingy, and dont want to pay too much. Infact, it would be the opposite, if it were a scam. People would offer over-the-top rewards just to catch greedy idiots.


Not so. There's always the risk the mark will complete it - they might get lucky, be skilled, run it on an alt, accept and run it when you're not around, etc. The higher the rewards get, the greater the risk of running a loss if people who know what they're doing start picking up the scam contracts.

Of course this doesn't apply to the case (common these days) where the destination is an undockable citadel. There you can indeed offer a fat reward... but a citadel's a big investment just to fleece people on contract collateral.


Scammers are mostly smart enough to know the balance though.

When you see those "selling a vexor navy issue for 70 mill! 3... 2.... 1.... " scams, where they post 1-2 legit contracts and the third is for a regular vexor or 700 million or something, the scammer knows that the price for the legit contracts are just high enough so that they wont be losing money in the long run.

By over the top, i dont mean like 1 bill rewards or anything. More like maybe 2 mill per jump which isnt bank breaking but still high.

All it takes is 1 for every 100 to fail and youve made your isk back, many times over.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-11-21 23:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
If you want to become a space trucker, jump in the Haulers Channel. The contracts posted there give you an idea how it works, and plenty of useful links in the MOTD. To be competitive you should be able to fly a properly fit Deep Space Transport with 60K fleet hangar (skill at lvl4) and have about 3B free ISK for collateral. I'm hauling my own stuff (nobody should get inside my business P) and sometimes pick up others.

Be careful with high reward contracts elsewhere, those are 99% scams.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#11 - 2016-11-22 10:35:56 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
When you see those "selling a vexor navy issue for 70 mill! 3... 2.... 1.... " scams, where they post 1-2 legit contracts and the third is for a regular vexor or 700 million or something, the scammer knows that the price for the legit contracts are just high enough so that they wont be losing money in the long run.


That's a different case. Besides the obvious possibility of taking the legit contracts with an alt, the scammer controls the ratio of legit and scammy contracts. You can't control the proportion of courier contracts that succeed. Influence, yes, but not control.

Quote:
By over the top, i dont mean like 1 bill rewards or anything. More like maybe 2 mill per jump which isnt bank breaking but still high.


So by "over the top" rewards you don't actually mean over the top rewards.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-11-22 21:56:37 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
When you see those "selling a vexor navy issue for 70 mill! 3... 2.... 1.... " scams, where they post 1-2 legit contracts and the third is for a regular vexor or 700 million or something, the scammer knows that the price for the legit contracts are just high enough so that they wont be losing money in the long run.


That's a different case. Besides the obvious possibility of taking the legit contracts with an alt, the scammer controls the ratio of legit and scammy contracts. You can't control the proportion of courier contracts that succeed. Influence, yes, but not control.


Its the same case.

First off, if youve been in JIta/Amarr/Dodixie long enough youll know that many of the scams of this sort actually post legit contracts. What theyre counting on, is that people will be in a rush to get the cheap ship/module, and therefore click "accept".

But the reason why its the same case, is that although a scammer can control the ratio of legit and scammy contracts, in cases like these, they cannot control the ratio of scammy contracts that are accepted versus the legit ones they lose.

Quote:


So by "over the top" rewards you don't actually mean over the top rewards.


By "Over the top" rewards, I dont mean "So over the top as to reward 1 bill per jump". I havent done courier contracts in years, so I am unaware as to the current market rates.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2016-11-23 03:12:10 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
If you want to become a space trucker, jump in the Haulers Channel. The contracts posted there give you an idea how it works, and plenty of useful links in the MOTD. To be competitive you should be able to fly a properly fit Deep Space Transport with 60K fleet hangar (skill at lvl4) and have about 3B free ISK for collateral. I'm hauling my own stuff (nobody should get inside my business P) and sometimes pick up others.

Be careful with high reward contracts elsewhere, those are 99% scams.


They are less than 99% scams. I post a good number of legit contracts on public contracts which are something like this:

- Jita to Dodi
- 2b collateral (actual goods value 1600m)
- DST size parcel
- 10m payment
- 14 days validity, 48 hours delivery window

That's above market rates for the payment (which is absurd, but markets are not logical). I'm banned from Haulers channel so can't post it there, but that contract will get done.

It might typically contain a marauder hull and a thousand tech 2 modules.



But again, OP - you are trying to compete with useful idiots. If I move a marauder and a thousand modules from Jita to Dodi, I'm looking to resell them at a 250-300 million markup. The useful idiot takes most of the risk, and gets all of ten million for their effort. Hence me calling them useful, and idiots.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-11-23 13:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
If you want to become a space trucker, jump in the Haulers Channel. The contracts posted there give you an idea how it works, and plenty of useful links in the MOTD. To be competitive you should be able to fly a properly fit Deep Space Transport with 60K fleet hangar (skill at lvl4) and have about 3B free ISK for collateral. I'm hauling my own stuff (nobody should get inside my business P) and sometimes pick up others.

Be careful with high reward contracts elsewhere, those are 99% scams.


They are less than 99% scams. I post a good number of legit contracts on public contracts which are something like this:

- Jita to Dodi
- 2b collateral (actual goods value 1600m)
- DST size parcel
- 10m payment
- 14 days validity, 48 hours delivery window

That's above market rates for the payment (which is absurd, but markets are not logical). I'm banned from Haulers channel so can't post it there, but that contract will get done.

10m payment for Jita - Dodi route is not much, slightly subpar. I'm talking about rewards of 100M upwards for "easy" jobs (mostly to private citadels). 1M per jump is a good number though.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Gnea Crassua
Cow and Pony Kebab Factory Civil War Survivors
#15 - 2016-11-23 16:01:16 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:
The main thing to watch out for with Scam Hauling Contracts, is the completion time. If they only give you 1 day to complete it, its most likely a scam.
That's not true. For most people, having it done sooner is a lot better. I would be a bit mindful of Lowsec / JF contracts that are 1 day to complete, but for high-sec ones? Not based on the completion time, at least. Not ever.

If you are looking to get into training, but have no clue where to start, then couriers are a great way of figuring out what other people are having moved. Don't do my couriers!
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-11-24 05:11:47 UTC
Gnea Crassua wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
The main thing to watch out for with Scam Hauling Contracts, is the completion time. If they only give you 1 day to complete it, its most likely a scam.
That's not true. For most people, having it done sooner is a lot better. I would be a bit mindful of Lowsec / JF contracts that are 1 day to complete, but for high-sec ones? Not based on the completion time, at least. Not ever.

If you are looking to get into training, but have no clue where to start, then couriers are a great way of figuring out what other people are having moved. Don't do my couriers!


I said most likely, not that it will always be a scam. The constrictions for 1 day hauling contracts are too confined as to be very difficult for new players to complete, especially if it is a scam, and considering how there are plenty of contracts that offer with 3-7 day completion times.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-11-24 15:37:36 UTC
I doubt many people bother with the completion time, most jobs posted in Hauler channel are done promptly and within hours. The decision to pick I base on target, size, jumps, reward. Collateral is secondary but relevant in relation to the size / risk of the route.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2016-11-24 23:35:29 UTC
A friend recently told me he used a courier contract to move a titan bpo.

I was actually surprised someone would accept a contract with collateral that high, but apparently some people do.