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Is anybody else dissapointed about the Engineering Complex?

Author
Rezard
Fornax Chemica
Zaibatsu Mercantile
#1 - 2016-11-21 14:07:14 UTC
I finally got to play a bit with them, they are horrible, I welcome changes yeah, but they are horrible in the way of being extremely unpractical.

Currently a medium/large POS can do manufacturing, research, copying and still defend itself.

If you want to achieve the same nowadays, you need at LEAST 2 XL EC.

Not mean to just complain, I think that POS's are outdated but really the result looks more inspired into making industry extremely difficult and complicated for the small/medium guy that is not willing to deploy 16 medium EC's just to achieve what he already can with one POS.

Thoughts?

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-11-21 14:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
You must not approach the EC from the POS point of view, as those will be removed from the game probably early next year. What I understand is, that CCP wants to make production more complicated and costly and also foster group play. I'm not a fan of this approach, because I think this will not work well in the current ecosystem. Personally I'm fine as my NPC station production lines are not harmed (yet), and maybe there are some niche cases where using a public EC actually makes sense.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Rezard
Fornax Chemica
Zaibatsu Mercantile
#3 - 2016-11-21 15:04:58 UTC
Indeed, what you said it's true, compared with the POS, the new EC don't offer a nice switch, and I also think the change is being pushed into players as a way to enforce group playing.

I see there's already 6 Medium one's in perimeter, which according to this will be 16 EC in total, but to remember which one has what, it is terrible.

I hope they switch to something more practical, as keeping track of this and that rig in this and that it is a huge pain in the arse.
Medium EC is around 550m the hull alone and has a wooping DPS of 750, less than a T1 BS for example, they would say that it's meant to have a defense fleet, but if you are a small/medium corp, now you are being forced to rely on bigger corps/alliances that can and will monopolize that market, less room for the small guy to have some independence.

But let's see what happens, the medium ones are indeed really vulnerable and low on DPS, so I expect them to start blowing up soon, which is maybe what CCP intended, more ISK sink and only the one's with the backend of big numbers will prevail.

Nalha Saldana
The Vomit Comets
#4 - 2016-11-21 17:07:58 UTC
But why would you even need optimal bonuses for every item in the game? Surely you have a plan to do something more specific and can rig for that.

You can still build anything else and you even get the -15-30% time required from the structure itself.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-11-21 17:29:28 UTC
Not sure, whether CCP thinks that way, but the new EC makes optimized production more an exception than today, where everybody run their own POS as a baseline. The convenience of NPC stations hopefully stays as it is, and does not get penalized further to force people into dependency, like they did with markets.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#6 - 2016-11-22 09:35:03 UTC
EC's will work well for larger organizations: the convenience of working in a station with the bonuses of working in a POS and much simplified management. Add in asset safety and it looks like a pretty good deal.

On the flip side, they are more expensive than a POS, consume more fuel and are easier to kill. For a large organization this is an acceptable tradeoff - they may have dozens or even hundreds of players using the facility.

For a small organization, the benefit of a POS is the TE bonus - for me, the ME bonus basically pays the fuel bill. It also gives a sense of ownership - I've added something to the sandbox. POS also allows a small organization to "win" an asymmetric conflict by denying the aggressor their victory condition - I can take my POS down and store it in a station in half an hour. Not without cost - I lose all my jobs but I can carry on working in the station and the attacker gets nothing.

EC's don't work that way and that's the main reason I don't expect to build one. It leaves me vulnerable to extortion "protection racketeering" and I have no reasonable counter. I'm surprised CODE aren't already selling permits!
YeuxVerts Belle
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#7 - 2016-11-24 09:38:50 UTC
Rezard wrote:
If you want to achieve the same nowadays, you need at LEAST 2 XL EC.


They don't have to be yours. Much cheaper than today.

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.

Durep
Lunar Labs
Nec Aspera Terrent
#8 - 2016-11-25 05:33:37 UTC
I have to agree that I am disappointed in the engineering structures. This clearly will be the end of the small corp/alliance doing any serious capital manufacturing. If moon mining follows the trend, then it will be the same for that.

Today you can deploy a well fit/Well defended Large POS for under 1b that can manufacture capitals, with good reductions in time and cost.

It takes a 10b hull (large) complex to even begin to do the same, and then it can't defend itself to anywhere near the same degree.

This drives all the smaller groups right out of EVE. Many either don't want to be part of a massive organization, or are not welcome in such because of their style of play. If moon harvesting goes the same way, this will be the death of the small independents.

A small group won't be able to defend these weaker but massively more expensive structures, and at the cost, they won't deploy them, driving out of market, and potentially out of EVE.

I really think that CCP needs to rethink what they are doing.

YeuxVerts Belle
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#9 - 2016-11-25 08:26:01 UTC
Durep wrote:
It takes a 10b hull (large) complex to even begin to do the same
[...]
A small group won't be able to defend these weaker but massively more expensive structures, and at the cost, they won't deploy them


Why would they? They should just use public ECs. Much less expensive.

Frankly, a lot of people complain about how POS and ECs don't compete, but one often overlooked aspect of the new structures is their ability and convenience of public usage. And it's a tremendous move forward.

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2016-11-25 09:15:37 UTC
YeuxVerts Belle wrote:
Why would they? They should just use public ECs. Much less expensive.

Frankly, a lot of people complain about how POS and ECs don't compete, but one often overlooked aspect of the new structures is their ability and convenience of public usage. And it's a tremendous move forward.

Assuming the owning corp has the ability, and will, to defend it.

Heck, just hope they remember to keep it fueled.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-11-25 09:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
YeuxVerts Belle wrote:
Rezard wrote:
If you want to achieve the same nowadays, you need at LEAST 2 XL EC.


They don't have to be yours. Much cheaper than today.

They have to, because trust and index based costs.

Successful public ECs are not profitable to use, because of the index spike coming with success. Also the trust level you have to maintain against the owner is magnitudes higher than for the market Fortizars.

If the index raises only by 2% points (or is this higher than in your far away system), the benefits of a rigged highsec EC is compensated.

I'm my own NPC alt.

YeuxVerts Belle
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#12 - 2016-11-25 13:11:04 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Successful public ECs are not profitable to use, because of the index spike coming with success. Also the trust level you have to maintain against the owner is magnitudes higher than for the market Fortizars.

If the index raises only by 2% points (or is this higher than in your far away system), the benefits of a rigged highsec EC is compensated.


When either trust is lost or index rises, what's stopping you from moving to another public EC?

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2016-11-25 13:53:39 UTC
YeuxVerts Belle wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Successful public ECs are not profitable to use, because of the index spike coming with success. Also the trust level you have to maintain against the owner is magnitudes higher than for the market Fortizars.

If the index raises only by 2% points (or is this higher than in your far away system), the benefits of a rigged highsec EC is compensated.


When either trust is lost or index rises, what's stopping you from moving to another public EC?

Trust ... the loss of all materials in production, loss of BPCs (you know T2 are also BPC) and then the BPO in asset safety for a week is not something I would like to have frequently.

There can't be a low index successful ECs in all New Eden. If it's not succesful in the sense of making profit for the owner by being public, it's either mine/closed club/corp or I would have a problem with trust.

I'm my own NPC alt.

YeuxVerts Belle
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#14 - 2016-11-25 14:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: YeuxVerts Belle
Tipa Riot wrote:
Trust ... the loss of all materials in production, loss of BPCs (you know T2 are also BPC) and then the BPO in asset safety for a week is not something I would like to have frequently.


I fail to see a scenario where you incorrectly placing your trust in an EC owner ends up with the EC being destroyed. The owner can certainly annoy you by making the structure private without asking you, but it doesn't benefit them (directly), so i doubt it'll be frequent. And it doesn't necessarly mean you'll lose the job's BPC and resources.

The above message presents my opinions on the topic at hand. If there is a conflict between my views and reality, consider reality to be correct until proven otherwise.

TomyLobo
Holy Hunters
#15 - 2016-11-27 10:51:03 UTC
I just find ECs especially the medium with it's rig granularity to be too much of a drastic change compared to a POS. There's also no crystal clear reason as to why the EC has to work this way which is why everyone is viewing this as a flat out nerf.

Currently, for those that can afford to run one. The bulk of the extra bonuses one gets from using an EC over a POS (mostly in null/wh) is nullified thanks to extremely high rig and fuel costs. What I know is that it will diswade a lot of industrialists which might result in more profit for those that can take the hit or are opportuned to be able to do so as a result of less competition.
Opresion
Bush League Inc.
#16 - 2016-11-27 23:15:15 UTC
All this new stuff really doesn't bode well for the 1-3 hr tops play time 3 man corps. I was really hoping coming back it would be easier to jump into industry with just a couple busy working fool friends. I guess not :(
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#17 - 2016-11-28 01:36:11 UTC
My corp's plan is wait until we are forced to stop using starbases.

Right now, it looks like we'll need two or three large EC.
TomyLobo
Holy Hunters
#18 - 2016-11-28 04:44:35 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My corp's plan is wait until we are forced to stop using starbases.

Right now, it looks like we'll need two or three large EC.

If CCP changes XL EC rig granularity to large and then large to medium with noticeable fuel block reductions, ECs will make a lot of sense.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-11-28 07:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
YeuxVerts Belle wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Trust ... the loss of all materials in production, loss of BPCs (you know T2 are also BPC) and then the BPO in asset safety for a week is not something I would like to have frequently.


I fail to see a scenario where you incorrectly placing your trust in an EC owner ends up with the EC being destroyed. The owner can certainly annoy you by making the structure private without asking you, but it doesn't benefit them (directly), so i doubt it'll be frequent. And it doesn't necessarly mean you'll lose the job's BPC and resources.

Regarding successful and safe public complexes ...

... yesterday I started a job in one of Karin's Raitarus because the benefits / index were acceptable at that time. The index was 6.22 in Perimeter for manufacturing. Now the index is 6.54 already, ... sorry ... this was a couple of minutes ago, 6.58 now. Guess where the index will be in a week?

I'm my own NPC alt.

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
#20 - 2016-11-28 17:22:53 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
YeuxVerts Belle wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Trust ... the loss of all materials in production, loss of BPCs (you know T2 are also BPC) and then the BPO in asset safety for a week is not something I would like to have frequently.


I fail to see a scenario where you incorrectly placing your trust in an EC owner ends up with the EC being destroyed. The owner can certainly annoy you by making the structure private without asking you, but it doesn't benefit them (directly), so i doubt it'll be frequent. And it doesn't necessarly mean you'll lose the job's BPC and resources.

Regarding successful and safe public complexes ...

... yesterday I started a job in one of Karin's Raitarus because the benefits / index were acceptable at that time. The index was 6.22 in Perimeter for manufacturing. Now the index is 6.54 already, ... sorry ... this was a couple of minutes ago, 6.58 now. Guess where the index will be in a week?


So you're saying they won't be successful because too many people will use them?

Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

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