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Anti-Alpha Mechinism
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Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-11-10 05:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
aldhura wrote:
This will only cause a stalemate in large fleet engagements, not a good idea.

How would it cause a stalemate?


PopeUrban wrote:
You know there's a preexisting thread discussing this EXACT thing right?

Short version: Damage caps/reduction on spaceships are far too unpredictable due to the large amount of fitting choices on spaceships.

Fitting choices are inconsequential. They all lead to tank vs dps. That's two variables.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-11-20 20:40:38 UTC
first off all this game involves HPz and reps so focused fire will always be a thing. although I do see what you're getting at I don't think this is the right way to accomplish that.

what about ECM. Instead of it preventing a target ship from locking anything, how about a cycle breaks lock from the parent ship. the same way chaff and flares work now. add projected ECM for the ECM bonused hulls.

makes an alpha volley more difficult without frustrating game rules, and gets rid of an existing awful game mechanic get two birds stoned at one ;)
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-11-20 20:48:25 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
first off all this game involves HPz and reps so focused fire will always be a thing. although I do see what you're getting at I don't think this is the right way to accomplish that.

what about ECM. Instead of it preventing a target ship from locking anything, how about a cycle breaks lock from the parent ship. the same way chaff and flares work now. add projected ECM for the ECM bonused hulls.

makes an alpha volley more difficult without frustrating game rules, and gets rid of an existing awful game mechanic get two birds stoned at one ;)

They already have ECM Burst modules that do that but their range is limited. The game would develop into a stalemate of locking vs remote repping if you could do that. It would be frustrating.

This idea or one like it works because it doesn't have arbitrary limits, it makes logical sense too and it already is implemented in game (bomb explosions killing other bombs about to arrive).

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#24 - 2016-11-20 22:57:06 UTC
So if a frigate pushes their dps over some arbitrary boundary 10 dreadnoughts now do as much damage as 9, correct?
The logic behind that is lost to me, could you please elaborate? And why does artillery need a nerf? And why do wrecking shots deal less damage than glancing blows all of a sudden? And didn't you want to make battleships great again? How does this help any ship with downfighting?
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-11-21 02:25:46 UTC
Fit more tank modules. Use tankier ships. Go armor and use tracking disruptors. Problem solved.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-11-21 03:40:19 UTC
Violet Hurst wrote:
So if a frigate pushes their dps over some arbitrary boundary 10 dreadnoughts now do as much damage as 9, correct?
The logic behind that is lost to me, could you please elaborate? And why does artillery need a nerf? And why do wrecking shots deal less damage than glancing blows all of a sudden? And didn't you want to make battleships great again? How does this help any ship with downfighting?

Theoretically there might be a possibility that you land at 100-200 dps off and a frigate could do that but given the firepower of a dread over a frigate that would be extremely rare if it happened at all.

Artillery doesn't need a nerf, extremely high alpha needs a nerf. The same sort of nerf that sentry drones got when they could all be assigned to a single person and alpha most ships off the field before they could rep or otherwise take player action to prevent their destruction. Why? Because when it comes to just headshots with alpha all the player skill and strategy is taken out of the game and it becomes about who brought the most alpha. That's very bad gameplay.

Wrecking shots still deal more damage than glancing blows. The difference is purely one of total dps applied to one target vs multiple.

If you have 20 high alpha ships that do 13000 dps each that's 260,000 damage. If you fired them all at a titan with 5,000,000 hp and 50% resists they would do 130,000 dps.

If you fired them all at battleship with 100,000 hp and 50% resists they would do 130,000 dps with 30,000 dps overkill.

Getting one shot in a larger ship is not good gameplay. You may as well have not fitted any tank on it at all, alpha just negated any knowlege, skill you possess or fitting you put on the ship because no matter what there will always be a limit to tank while there is no limit to alpha. You put more tank on your ship the bigger alliance will bring more ships to alpha it and remove any strategic fitting or other action you can employ. Bad.

The idea is to find a point where you can counter alpha with knowledge / skill.

How do you do that?

You allow alpha to continue but at a trade off to numbers.

With my idea instead of bringing 20 high alpha ships to alpha battleships you need to bring 30 or 40. You can still insta-pop them if you like but to do that instead of wasting 15,000 dps you'll need to now waste 310,000.

The counter to that is if the opponent of the alpha side brings 30 or 40 and instead spreads out their damage they can apply that entire 520,000 damage to two ships and while they are losing ships to Alpha and not alpha'ing the enemy ships they are making the enemy logi rep twice as much damage.

Instead of making the winner always the person that brings the most people with the most alpha you've just opened up a whole new strategic option - overwhelming their logi before they can alpha all your ships.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2016-11-21 04:41:13 UTC
-1. This idea reeks to high heavens;

so, when I'm cruising around in my Typhoon, you not only need tackle to actually grab stuff, more tackle or paint to mitigate the way large weapons apply to smaller targets, but now even when we manage all this you still think it's fair to cap damage.

May I ask WHY?

There is also the small issue of high alpha weapons such as Artillery turrets, who pay dearly for this in DPS output. They track poorly, they output sub-par damage, often requiring multiple tracking enhancing modules and/or rigs to become viable; and they eat powergrid like no other. -BUT- they deliver Alpha. Their one redeeming quality.

Your proposal takes entire doctrines, schools of thought, and throws them in the trashbin- not only the alphastrike doctrines, but the solid buffer counter-doctrines as well.

Here too, I see plenty going to waste for no reason.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2016-11-21 06:24:02 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
-1. This idea reeks to high heavens;

so, when I'm cruising around in my Typhoon, you not only need tackle to actually grab stuff, more tackle or paint to mitigate the way large weapons apply to smaller targets, but now even when we manage all this you still think it's fair to cap damage.

May I ask WHY?

There is also the small issue of high alpha weapons such as Artillery turrets, who pay dearly for this in DPS output. They track poorly, they output sub-par damage, often requiring multiple tracking enhancing modules and/or rigs to become viable; and they eat powergrid like no other. -BUT- they deliver Alpha. Their one redeeming quality.

Your proposal takes entire doctrines, schools of thought, and throws them in the trashbin- not only the alphastrike doctrines, but the solid buffer counter-doctrines as well.

Here too, I see plenty going to waste for no reason.

Nah what reeks is your comprehension. Need to read. DPS is DPS whether you do it all at once or every second.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#29 - 2016-11-21 09:34:25 UTC
Steffles wrote:
DPS is DPS whether you do it all at once or every second.


Assuming you meant damage there, let's take your first example, shall we? The blaster ships do 15000 dps (15000 per second), the projectile weapon ships do 10000 dps(25000 every 2.5 seconds). When pitted against each other the blaster ships get a 10% reduction whereas the projectile weapon ships get a 20% reduction. So now the blaster ships do 13500 dps and the projectile ships do 8000 dps. Unless of course the projectile ships all ungroup their guns and stagger their shots so they can pretend to be (worse) blaster ships.

When it comes to wrecking shots: Let's assume a shot with a base damage of 3000 against a frigate. A glancing blow would deal 1500 - 1605 damage, which would be reduced to 1350 - 1444.5 damage. A wrecking shot would deal 9000 damage, which would be reduced to 1000. So yes, the wrecking shot would deal less damage than the glancing blow.

In general you have just buffed smaller ships tremendously with a lower damage reduction threshold plus faster firing lower dps weapons.

Also logistics (healing) has never been a counter to alpha anywhere. Alpha is the hard counter to healing and resurrects and temporary invulnerability are the hard counters to alpha. Introducing rezzes to Eve would pretty much just crush the economy and nothing else. So if you don't like being alpha'd, fly a Rorqual.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2016-11-21 09:52:43 UTC
All this does is make it impossible to kill another fleet if they have good logi.
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