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[Ascension] Engineering Complexes

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Author
Kinizsi
Puritans
We want your ISK
#21 - 2016-10-26 07:01:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie!

I've read the dev blogs, and forum post about loot drops from manufacture jobs on the destroyed Citadels and EC's.

There is shown that there will be a loot drop from ongoing manufacture jobs when the citadel is blown up.
It's a cool feature, what is supposed to enforce capsuleers to destroy EC's and Citadels and making it worthwhile for the attackers because the loot can be pretty nice if it's a well used manufacturing EC-Citadel.

I've tested reinforcing and destroying EC's on SISI

What I've found that if you reinforce the armor layer, manufacture jobs pause, that's cool, but I've found a really disappointing feature what deletes all hopes and dreams about nince manufacture loot from destroyed EC's Citadels.

The owner of the manufacture job can anytime cancel the ongoing manufacture job even if it's paused, this way destroying all materials and deny all manufacture loot from the victor who blows up the Citadel or EC.

So there is no real chance on loot drop at all, casue the owners would surely cancel all jobs in the last possible minutes, before the structure blows up. This would be especially true on high value manufacture jobs like capitals-supercapitals. (and without exteriour view we still won't know what was in build when an XL-EC blows up Big smile )

Without any real chance of manufacture loot drop there is gona be little interest in blowing up those structures wich could be a huge game driving motive.

Please don't let manufacture job owners to completely deny loot from blown up structures.
Please at least put some % of the cancelled job materials into a "pool" where it is stored and can be looted after an EC blows up.

Thank you for your time.
Demolishar
United Aggression
#22 - 2016-10-26 07:56:44 UTC
Kinizsi wrote:
CCP Fozzie!

I've read the dev blogs, and forum post about loot drops from manufacture jobs on the destroyed Citadels and EC's.

There is shown that there will be a loot drop from ongoing manufacture jobs when the citadel is blown up.
It's a cool feature, what is supposed to enforce capsuleers to destroy EC's and Citadels and making it worthwhile for the attackers because the loot can be pretty nice if it's a well used manufacturing EC-Citadel.

I've tested reinforcing and destroying EC's on SISI

What I've found that if you reinforce the armor layer, manufacture jobs pause, that's cool, but I've found a really disappointing feature what deletes all hopes and dreams about nince manufacture loot from destroyed EC's Citadels.

The owner of the manufacture job can anytime cancel the ongoing manufacture job even if it's paused, this way destroying all materials and deny all manufacture loot from the victor who blows up the Citadel or EC.

So there is no real chance on loot drop at all, casue the owners would surely cancel all jobs in the last possible minutes, before the structure blows up. This would be especially true on high value manufacture jobs like capitals-supercapitals. (and without exteriour view we still won't know what was in build when an XL-EC blows up Big smile )

Without any real chance of manufacture loot drop there is gona be little interest in blowing up those structures wich could be a huge game driving motive.

Please don't let manufacture job owners to completely deny loot from blown up structures.
Please at least put some % of the cancelled job materials into a "pool" where it is stored and can be looted after an EC blows up.

Thank you for your time.


This seems like an excellent point.
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#23 - 2016-10-26 12:44:02 UTC
In many ways i agree with the above posts about it being really easy to simply cancel jobs at the last second to prevent a lot of potential loot drops for enemies with the destruction of engineering complexes, I also think that the drawbacks of using an engineering complex instead of a citadel are a bit too harsh especially if a change to being able to cancel jobs is introduced.

I get that a Citadel is the "defense" oriented structure and that is why it has bonuses to the strength of Combat rigs and it has lower vulnerability times and higher hit points. It also comes with a higher cost because of that.

Now engineering complexes have been added and they are planned to average between 50% and 60% of the cost of a like sized citadel. They do not get the bonuses to combat rigs and they have fewer defenses than the like sized citadel. I can understand that philosophy. The part I do not understand and think has been taken a bit too far is the fact that they have 3 times the vulnerability.

An XL citadel has 12 hours of vulnerability a week. That seems like nothing when you compare that to the XL Engineering complex that is vulnerable to attack for 36 hours a week. That makes defense of a XL Engineering complex almost the same as a full time job (using 40 hours a week as definition of a full time job). Now I understand that the Citadels and even more so the Engineering complexes are not designed to be defended by 1 person. That means you have to have a full gang of people equal in size to a potential attacking force that needs to be on call up to almost 40 hours a week to defend a XL Engineering complex.

Do I want them to have the same hit points and vulnerability as the Citadels. No, they are not designed with defense in mind. I also don't the potential benefits of an Engineering Complex making up for the fact that it has 3 times the vulnerability time.

I honestly think that the vulnerability time should be reduced to something closer to 2 times as much as the citadels so that would make engineering complexes vulnerable for 6, 12, and 24 hours a week based on size instead of the current 9, 18, and 36 hours they currently have on the test server.

The Engineering complex already has less useful defenses, and fewer hit points than the citadel that makes the vulnerability time seem like it is way overkill and could make defending them be more of a chore than the old job of keeping control towers fueled and managing the strontium to time reinforcement times during attacks.

CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2016-10-26 14:45:35 UTC
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#25 - 2016-10-26 15:04:15 UTC
So i've done some pretty extensive testing of the damage output ect. The larges and XL's are in a pretty solid place overall with on caveat, but ill get to that later.

Following Assumptions made: No combat rigs as they defeat the purpose of the structure effectively.

An XL can pretty well handle a dreadnought, but requires some support to deal with a FAX, however even a dozen subcaps will quickly render a FAX dead when supporting the sotoyo.

They are still awful against t3's but that was expected, and overall not much of a concern. The L cant quite deal with a dread, but again with light subcap support dreads go down fairly smoothly.

The Medium is where we need to have a chat. Giving it only fighters gives it very few defense options as the fighters are LOL bad and you know this. The mediums for all intents basically have no offensive ability and are purely relegated to fleet support. I think you should give them at least 1 launcher, or, alternatively they can fit 2 launchers but only ASML launchers, giving them no anti-capital ability. They just frankly need some more tooth.

My XL "Exception" - Frankly they need Point Defense, in order to differentiate between a fortizar and an EC in terms of fitting i suggest setting a fitting cap of 1 point defense and maybe have it drain cap a bit harder. But based on combat testing not having point defense is a huge issue. This is a very nice fleet support module, I think it would be worth a look.
Erika Mizune
Lucifer's Hammer
A Band Apart.
#26 - 2016-10-26 15:19:29 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!


I wish I could like this post more than once. Thank you! Will join the testing as soon as I can Big smile

Former DJ & Manager of Eve Radio | Blog | Sounds of New Eden | Twitch | Twitter

Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#27 - 2016-10-26 15:28:46 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:

The Medium is where we need to have a chat. Giving it only fighters gives it very few defense options as the fighters are LOL bad and you know this. The mediums for all intents basically have no offensive ability and are purely relegated to fleet support. I think you should give them at least 1 launcher, or, alternatively they can fit 2 launchers but only ASML launchers, giving them no anti-capital ability. They just frankly need some more tooth.



i think you mixed up the engineering complexes there:

medium engineering complex gets 1 launcher slot and NO fighters at all

Large engineering complex has 2 launcher slots and can use light fighters and support fighters only.
Cee Two
Radiant Blue Sun
#28 - 2016-10-26 15:31:27 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!



What is the final word on which ships can dock in which Engineering Complexes, and Citadels?

The text of them doesn't match the restrictions in place on SiSi (as of yesterday)

Rorquals in Astrahus?
Rorquals in Raitaru?
Rorquals / Capitals in Azbels?

Thanks.
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#29 - 2016-10-26 15:41:20 UTC
Cee Two wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!



What is the final word on which ships can dock in which Engineering Complexes, and Citadels?

The text of them doesn't match the restrictions in place on SiSi (as of yesterday)

Rorquals in Astrahus?
Rorquals in Raitaru?
Rorquals / Capitals in Azbels?

Thanks.



Dev blog said that capitals can not redock at the azbels even though they can be made in one.

so astrahus/Raitaru/Azbels are all the same to my understanding. All ships of any tech that are Battleship and below in size plus the tech 1 and tech 2 freighters, and the orca.

the fortizar and xl engineering complex add in the rest of the captials (dreads, carriers, force aux, rorqual)

the keepstar is the only one that the supercapitals can actually dock at even though they can be made inside the XL engineering complex.
Cee Two
Radiant Blue Sun
#30 - 2016-10-26 15:44:53 UTC
Selak Zorander wrote:
Cee Two wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!



What is the final word on which ships can dock in which Engineering Complexes, and Citadels?

The text of them doesn't match the restrictions in place on SiSi (as of yesterday)

Rorquals in Astrahus?
Rorquals in Raitaru?
Rorquals / Capitals in Azbels?

Thanks.



Dev blog said that capitals can not redock at the azbels even though they can be made in one.

so astrahus/Raitaru/Azbels are all the same to my understanding. All ships of any tech that are Battleship and below in size plus the tech 1 and tech 2 freighters, and the orca.

the fortizar and xl engineering complex add in the rest of the captials (dreads, carriers, force aux, rorqual)

the keepstar is the only one that the supercapitals can actually dock at even though they can be made inside the XL engineering complex.


I get the restriction on the mediums regarding Rorqual/Caps, no no Rorqual in an Azbel? Seriously? That adds nothing to the game except making you be in a system with a Fortizar or Station to move mass minerals to build capital ships instead of just dumping off the rorquals into the Azbel. This just seems like a clicky clicky which adds nothing.
Saeka Tyr
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#31 - 2016-10-26 15:56:10 UTC
Searching in asset window:

FANTASTIC. Now please relabel from "Search in Stations" to "Search in Structures".



With the fragmentation of rigs, finding a structure to do what you want is going to be pretty difficult. Especially if your one of those poor industrialists who got their back broken by a 1b capex investment. :(

Currently, if I want to find a structure to build stuff in I have either the industry window or the structure browser to choose from. The industry browser has clearly not experienced much love :(

With something like a hundred rig options, if your an industrialist who wants to find a structure that can build his widget, basically you have to go down each individual structure in either browser setting. This is "suboptimal" because the structure browser only says "OK THIS HAS AN INDUSTRY SERVICE, GOOD LUCK FIGURING OUT MORE!" and the industry browser just infobombs you.

Further, the industry window does not seem to take into account access lists when searching. It'd also be nice to be able to say "non-public structures that i have access to" rather than "public or corp".

What I would like to see is some sort of ability to find useful bonuses without having to poke through each individual structure. I'm unclear on how this would be best presented. The solution that's least visually awkward comes to mind as this, within the industry browser itself:

* Player loads up a blueprint, either directly or in preview.
* Player presses a button in the "filter me some ****" tab that says one possibly two things:

"ONLY SHOW ME STRUCTURES THAT HAVE AN ME OR TE BONUS FOR THIS ITEM"

or

"ONLY SHOW ME STRUCTURES THAT HAVE AN ME BONUS FOR THIS ITEM" / "ONLY SHOW ME STRUCTURES THAT HAVE AN TE BONUS FOR THIS ITEM"

This way you can filter for structures that are actually useful for your build. This will get super important as highsec gets littered with bullshit weirdly rigged EC's of various sizes.
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Initiative Mercenaries
#32 - 2016-10-26 19:16:53 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Hey all, thanks for the feedback so far! Just to let you know, asset searching is now available in Citadels and Engineering Complexes! Please test this out and give us some feedback, thanks!


Oh thank Bob. That was getting annoying.

Can you perhaps consider looking at the ship save fit window?

In station ship search vs. Ship saved fitting windows do not operate the same.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6666913#post6666913

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#33 - 2016-10-27 06:12:13 UTC
Selak Zorander wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:

The Medium is where we need to have a chat. Giving it only fighters gives it very few defense options as the fighters are LOL bad and you know this. The mediums for all intents basically have no offensive ability and are purely relegated to fleet support. I think you should give them at least 1 launcher, or, alternatively they can fit 2 launchers but only ASML launchers, giving them no anti-capital ability. They just frankly need some more tooth.



i think you mixed up the engineering complexes there:

medium engineering complex gets 1 launcher slot and NO fighters at all

Large engineering complex has 2 launcher slots and can use light fighters and support fighters only.


I must have missed something then, as i coudl swear when i was testing them the other day i was unable to fit a launcher to the medium. Was there a stat change sometime last week?
Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#34 - 2016-10-27 10:23:27 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:


I must have missed something then, as i coudl swear when i was testing them the other day i was unable to fit a launcher to the medium. Was there a stat change sometime last week?



nope those have been the stats since they showed up on singularity.
Icarus Narcissus
Pathway to the Next
The Revenant Order
#35 - 2016-10-29 01:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus Narcissus
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We're not holding back any of the Ascension feature announcements for Vegas.


After watching CCP Seagull at Vegas, those SKINs are worth the surprise. <3

I forgive you Fozzie Lol
Jita Hoar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2016-11-07 09:59:05 UTC
Plopped down a Sotiyo to test out the "Labratory" module and rigs. Unfortunately when you try to install a blueprint into the window, none of the options are available, despite the Research Lab Service being online and consuming fuel. Additionally, when you're sitting in the Engineering Complex, the "Industry" button is greyed out and reads as "Disabled"

http://imgur.com/a/IItH6
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#37 - 2016-11-07 12:13:10 UTC
This might sound silly but can we put a gun on one of those?

Might be an expensive experience when you put a medium complex up and 2 days later, somewhere in lowsec, 23 proteus came...

The End (of that complex)

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Selak Zorander
Mord-Sith
#38 - 2016-11-07 12:20:22 UTC
Was the engineering complex Q&A ever done? I was looking forward to it but I might have missed it. If so does anyone have a link the the Q&A?
Kinizsi
Puritans
We want your ISK
#39 - 2016-11-14 12:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
Kinizsi wrote:
CCP Fozzie!

I've read the dev blogs, and forum post about loot drops from manufacture jobs on the destroyed Citadels and EC's.

There is shown that there will be a loot drop from ongoing manufacture jobs when the citadel is blown up.
It's a cool feature, what is supposed to enforce capsuleers to destroy EC's and Citadels and making it worthwhile for the attackers because the loot can be pretty nice if it's a well used manufacturing EC-Citadel.

I've tested reinforcing and destroying EC's on SISI

What I've found that if you reinforce the armor layer, manufacture jobs pause, that's cool, but I've found a really disappointing feature what deletes all hopes and dreams about nince manufacture loot from destroyed EC's Citadels.

The owner of the manufacture job can anytime cancel the ongoing manufacture job even if it's paused, this way destroying all materials and deny all manufacture loot from the victor who blows up the Citadel or EC.

So there is no real chance on loot drop at all, casue the owners would surely cancel all jobs in the last possible minutes, before the structure blows up. This would be especially true on high value manufacture jobs like capitals-supercapitals. (and without exteriour view we still won't know what was in build when an XL-EC blows up Big smile )

Without any real chance of manufacture loot drop there is gona be little interest in blowing up those structures wich could be a huge game driving motive.

Please don't let manufacture job owners to completely deny loot from blown up structures.
Please at least put some % of the cancelled job materials into a "pool" where it is stored and can be looted after an EC blows up.

Thank you for your time.



Can I get an answer please?

Does CCP working on this problem or it's intentionally broken and it won't change?
Mariko Musashi Hareka
Kaishin.
#40 - 2016-11-15 03:37:14 UTC
Selak Zorander wrote:
In many ways i agree with the above posts about it being really easy to simply cancel jobs at the last second to prevent a lot of potential loot drops for enemies with the destruction of engineering complexes, I also think that the drawbacks of using an engineering complex instead of a citadel are a bit too harsh especially if a change to being able to cancel jobs is introduced.

I get that a Citadel is the "defense" oriented structure and that is why it has bonuses to the strength of Combat rigs and it has lower vulnerability times and higher hit points. It also comes with a higher cost because of that.

Now engineering complexes have been added and they are planned to average between 50% and 60% of the cost of a like sized citadel. They do not get the bonuses to combat rigs and they have fewer defenses than the like sized citadel. I can understand that philosophy. The part I do not understand and think has been taken a bit too far is the fact that they have 3 times the vulnerability.

An XL citadel has 12 hours of vulnerability a week. That seems like nothing when you compare that to the XL Engineering complex that is vulnerable to attack for 36 hours a week. That makes defense of a XL Engineering complex almost the same as a full time job (using 40 hours a week as definition of a full time job). Now I understand that the Citadels and even more so the Engineering complexes are not designed to be defended by 1 person. That means you have to have a full gang of people equal in size to a potential attacking force that needs to be on call up to almost 40 hours a week to defend a XL Engineering complex.

Do I want them to have the same hit points and vulnerability as the Citadels. No, they are not designed with defense in mind. I also don't the potential benefits of an Engineering Complex making up for the fact that it has 3 times the vulnerability time.

I honestly think that the vulnerability time should be reduced to something closer to 2 times as much as the citadels so that would make engineering complexes vulnerable for 6, 12, and 24 hours a week based on size instead of the current 9, 18, and 36 hours they currently have on the test server.

The Engineering complex already has less useful defenses, and fewer hit points than the citadel that makes the vulnerability time seem like it is way overkill and could make defending them be more of a chore than the old job of keeping control towers fueled and managing the strontium to time reinforcement times during attacks.



Honestly I think the vulnerablitiys need to be switched Citadels should have 36 hours and Engineering Complexes should have 12 hours as the citadels are more well defended then the ECs, just seems really stupid tohave the one that has less defensive capabilities to have more vulnerability time
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