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Gameplay design reason behind needing to spam d-scan?

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Keno Skir
#21 - 2016-11-14 13:16:04 UTC
Dscan is a catalyst for conflict. Conflict drives the entire in game economy and all activity within it. In a HUGE number of cases conflict is only possible due to a pilots negligence with regard to dscan. If we automate all aspects of safety conflict becomes a rarity which is the opposite of what CCP want. Dscan is the embodiment of the players choice, whether to put in effort or be lazy and reap the rewards of either. Working as intended, the lazy become food for those who are willing to put the effort in.

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Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-11-14 13:21:56 UTC
Swoop McFly wrote:


When you hit d-scan the server needs to calculate the distance between you and every ship and object in system. If the server had to do that for every player in system the workload would scale with N^2. The server nodes already have trouble keeping up in big battles - hitting them with another N^2 problem would not be a good idea.


it is already doing that for overview - objects and ships, as I sometimes briefly see ships warping by, or briefly see something in overview as I warped by. adding that to dscan wont require re-calculating the distances, it will be just like overview with bigger "grid" size so-to-speak and less info to show (only ship names).
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#23 - 2016-11-14 13:27:08 UTC
Damn, now I have to agree with Beast. Having to smash a button every few seconds is stupid. The game should reward AWARENESS (ie you should have to be looking at your client), not repetitive stress injury inducing button smashing.

Now I don't beleive d-scan should 'ping' audibly like radar when new results show up (again you shold have to be looking at your client), and maybe having to click a button for a 1 minute cycle wouldn't be so bad (to keep you 'active'), but the current situation is crap. need to spam d-scan is imo one thing that keeps more people from playing in wormholes more often, having to spam is annoying as hell.
Captain Awkward
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2016-11-14 13:46:54 UTC
Im not sure if it is a mechanic that needs to be in place because of server mechnics.

When you DScan, your computer ask the sever for a list of all the things in your DScan range. The actuall information where it is needs to stay on the server in order to prevent the eve online version of wallhacks.

A automated broadcast system might put to mutch stress on the server. Espacially in larger fleet fights.
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#25 - 2016-11-14 14:15:37 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
it seems to me that whatever info which is already being sent every ping (local chat info, overview info, etc) could just be augmented with the dscan info.


I endorse this product and/or service idea.

I can think of many EULA-compliant ways to use that additional incoming data to enhance my Code enforcement work!

Thank you, carebear, for yet again making a suggestion you think will make things safer for you, that would actually help me to asplode you more.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
#26 - 2016-11-14 16:03:27 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:
I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?

There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.

The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.

If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.

If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb.



Great idea!!! Lets add "refresh" button to overview and Local chat!

+ 1 !!!


(You are trolling and so am I)

But really - using D-scan (spamming it) is a big part of "know your surroundings gameplay"...

Otherwise we might as well dumb this down and just show all ships(players) in the system on your overview and get rid of D-scan all together, right?

Also remove cosmic anomalies - and put them all on the overview to easily warp to. Also mining lasers should automatically switch over to a new asteroid once one that you are currently mining is exhausted...right?

Right?
Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-11-14 16:50:11 UTC
I'm so happy most people posting here aren't involved in any decision making. D-scan is not a catalyst for conflict or the lack of updating it. Its a user interface like any other interface you use to connect to the underlying virtual machine. The fact that it exists is not a question of design choice of 2016 as this tool was around sense the birth of eve and most likely an archaic tool that should have been put to bed a long time ago, but as eve players fond of there conservative mindsets its left intact after almost 10+ years. Like most other parts of eve it should be questioned and removed if its not serving its intended purpose. Its also quite foolish guessing ccps server architecture and believing that it would cause lag and is the reason its not auto updating, making stupid assumptions turns you into a tinfoil engineer.

I think the issue of D-scan isn't the idea of manually needing updates. Its the fact that it can pre-alert the player of off-grid activity's. I believe it was one of the main devs talking about putting the D-scan into the overview but somehow it never did end up happening. Sadly its a nifty cool little toy until your completely dependent on its use like in J-space. Then you realize how stupid the UI design is and what pvp boils down to. A click and update tool that will give you a list of possible hostiles for you to make rudimentary decisions to run or engage before the enemy team is on grid.

I think the issue is in the whole list mechanic and update system that needs to be thought through. EvE pvp should probably be updated to serve a more complex engagement system. The whole update system is very rudimentary. I'm probably trying to rethink the whole core game from the ground up but the whole update system isn't very exciting and engaging, its almost a game made perfect for an AI except they expect a player to take its place and do what we are bad at. Players should handle the upper level decisions and leave the lower level updates to something more automatic like all other client UI interfaces. Sadly a change of this magnitude to make things better probably needs a heavy alteration that we may never see in EvE altogether, might also ruin what makes this game what it is. It would be nice to see the D-scanner get integrated into the Overview though.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#28 - 2016-11-14 18:44:44 UTC
Vigirr wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?


No, any form of automation is forbidden.



Tell that to the OP, who seems to use a script to generate this kind of thread Big smile

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
Memphis Baas
#29 - 2016-11-14 19:17:23 UTC
Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.

So you can complain all you want, and try to use stupid arguments like "why isn't everything else click-spammy", but please take your complaints to the petition system because they're annoying us here. We're players. What do you expect us to do about it? Join you in your whining to CCP? **** no, we don't give a ****.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#30 - 2016-11-14 19:29:11 UTC
I think the real reason why this exists is to demand attention.

When you are clicking the Dscan button every 5 seconds, you are not on Reddit, you are not chatting, you can only be so aware of so many things.

If Dscan cycled automatically, you would only have to keep the window up, keeping one eye on it. There is no required investment, and thus LESS people will be inattentive.

For EVE to work the tools that keep you safe have to be a bit faulty and cumbersome, otherwise people make less mistakes. The annoyance you feel as you endlessly dscan is exactly the tradeoff you give to be better than the other people. Those who can stay attentive survive, and the less barriers to attentiveness, the harder it is to catch people unaware.

You are correct, in real life you will have systems that start a claxon the second new people come within a prescribed boundary distance. You would have systems that automatically protected you, and perhaps better defenses, but that is because the design goal of building actual equipment is to maximize the abilities of the operator. The goal in EVE is to facilitate interesting and exciting events. The system is engineered as such that you have to work for your victory.

All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#31 - 2016-11-14 19:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#32 - 2016-11-14 20:34:57 UTC
There's also a technical reason for it.

D-Scan is a fairly expensive process. As it has to check the distance to _everything_ in the system.

Automating it for 1 person wouldn't be a problem. if it was _everyone?_

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Keno Skir
#33 - 2016-11-14 20:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Ashterothi wrote:
All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.


So much this ^

Well done Ashterothi for winning EvE, your medal is in the mail Cool

(if you like i will literally award you a medal in memory of this day, so others might learn from your example)

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-11-14 20:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Memphis Baas wrote:
Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.



Not to defend the OP's serial shiptoasting or anything, but, Dscan has been around at least as long as I have (hell, I remember when you could d-scan NPCs).

With respect to whether or not the functionality/playability/QOL of a given feature should be updated or improved, the fact that the feature didn't exist at some point isn't even in the same zipcode as an actual counterpoint. Furthermore, if, "[Feature] was specifically made in a certain way in its initial implementation," were a statement that actually mattered, we'd never be able to change anything. You'd still have a probe scanner that required flying around the system and dropping probes, then waiting entire minutes while they analyzed, the system scanner would be a manual thing with a 5AU range, and bombers would use cruise missiles.

I've never seen a d-scan suggestion I really liked, and it would almost certainly be a profoundly difficult change no matter what, but those were complete non-arguments.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Orlacc
#35 - 2016-11-14 20:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Orlacc
Great question. Playing long?

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2016-11-14 20:51:24 UTC
Im not online to test but cant you just paper weight + hotkey for continues updates?
Alana Packham
Corporation N
#37 - 2016-11-14 21:43:55 UTC
there needs to be a difference between hi-sec and the rest of the game apart form people in hi-sec enjoying the game.

its called d-scan.

but if your in a wormhole, and I know its been a while for me, just look at the local chat box?

Its not that the Dev's have never been hi-sec miners, more that if they ever admitted it they'd be designing new pattern's in the dust as they sweep the car park. Would you employ someone who spends all day mining in hi?
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#38 - 2016-11-14 22:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Because dscan is not a purely passive system.

Being good at it is actually a skill. I'm not talking the normal passive dscan checking as a defensive action, but when you're adjusting the cone and range to scout particular vectors, or timing it for use while in warp you don't really want it to be constantly updating.

I'm not particularly the best dscan wizard, but I have a guy in corp who is magical with that thing. Using only dscan, his camera, a couple bookmarks, and fast tackle I've seen him track down and grab safed up targets in wspace far faster and more efficiently than I thought possible.

When you combine it with probes, a really good scout can nail down someone's location so precisely that they can get a warpin on a target on the first pass, as they know where the target is within a 1AU radius before they even launch combat probes. Make no mistake, whether the scout knows it or not, doing that requires some pretty complex 3d math and spatial reasoning that goes far beyond APM. They're literally doing triangulation in their head on the fly.

Is it annoying to tap dscan to watch for probes and incoming ships? Sure. That's kind of the point. If you're using it defensively there should be a chance that you're going to miss something if you're doing lots of other actions.

Dscan isn't your eyeballs. It's more like the spaceship version of a tracking skill. Its something you want at least one person in the group to keep eyes on specifically so other people in the group can focus more directly on whatever they're doing.
witchking42
Doomheim
#39 - 2016-11-14 22:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: witchking42
Problem solved :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2014/AnSME7.gif

Just need to map scan to the "Y" key Big smile
Jen Outamon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2016-11-14 23:13:46 UTC
witchking42 wrote:
Problem solved :

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2014/AnSME7.gif

Just need to map scan to the "Y" key Big smile


"Doh! Stupid bird!" - heard somewhere in W space.

The OP said "There can be no lore aspect to this." I am not so sure. Perhaps there is. D-scan doesn't work like radar. It can't be based on radio waves, as it operates at speeds about 3500x faster then light. So it is based on some kind of magic, and the lore can make up all kinds of restrictions on how that magic works.

If it did work like radar, I also want to point out that not only should it be auto-updating, it should just provide a 3-d map (after all it can detect range and angle too, as can you by manually changing the settings). But it doesn't work that way. (And that is a good thing ! )