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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7421 - 2016-11-10 20:09:05 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Wow, just wow.

COMS ARE 3rd PARTY APPLICATIONS

I dare you to join fleets, Offer to scout, and say you that you will only use the ingame client for your communications with the FC.

Tell us how that goes.

*reminds self to never assume malice, when stupidity is sufficient explanation for the crazy crap people type out in this thread*

Eve has a intergraded VOIP system in the client, it is not hard to use and requires no 3rd party programs.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7422 - 2016-11-10 20:13:37 UTC
Join a fleet, offer to scout without 3rd party coms and see how that goes for you. Tell them 3rd party applications only make things easier, but they are not a requirement.

Why are your friends not on comms incidentally? Is not using 3rd party applications one of the requirements you have for that list of things people should use to counter afk cloaky camping?

Scouting is in no way, manner or form an accessible alternative to real time information for individual players.


Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7423 - 2016-11-10 20:13:44 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Wow, just wow.

COMS ARE 3rd PARTY APPLICATIONS

I dare you to join fleets, Offer to scout, and say you that you will only use the ingame client for your communications with the FC.

Tell us how that goes.

*reminds self to never assume malice, when stupidity is sufficient explanation for the crazy crap people type out in this thread*


You are the one that took fleets into the discussions. When I talked scouting, I meant gathering intelligence of the systems near you, in your chain. Basically what you use local for in nullsec.

Wormholer for life.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7424 - 2016-11-10 20:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Seriously Jerghul the problem is your arrogance and condescending approach to EVERYTHING.

Are comms required? No. Do comms like TS make things easier? In many cases yes. And is it required in many instances? Sure, I'll grant that managing even a small fleet is so much easier with comms that we can just agree it is a requirement. But not in every instance.

If I were having a buddy scout for me as I flew my freighter through HS....a chat channel would work perfectly fine. Jumping to a jump beacon...a chat channel can work just fine.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7425 - 2016-11-10 20:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
The Kim jon-un strategy of flying around looking at things?

Lets play EvE like that exclusively. It sounds great.

To the post above last.

To last post:

How was that supposed to happen? You are in HS someone and just happen to notice a friend in local, then ask him to join a fleet with you using ingame messaging, then tell him where you are going, check to see you have the same route (same safety set), and continue with using chat to coordinate the route?

Sure that happens a lot; if your friend happens to be one of your 2ndary accounts and happens to be you by some happy circumstance.

Otherwise: Get on coms.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7426 - 2016-11-10 20:20:46 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Join a fleet, offer to scout without 3rd party coms and see how that goes for you. Tell them 3rd party applications only make things easier, but they are not a requirement.

Why are your friends not on comms incidentally? Is not using 3rd party applications one of the requirements you have for that list of things people should use to counter afk cloaky camping?

Scouting is in no way, manner or form an accessible alternative to real time information for individual players.




Scouting for a fleet is but one context for scouting.....

And yes, I will grant that scouting for a fleet comms are pretty much required. But that is not all of scouting.

Think of a Venn diagram. The big circle is scouting...all scouting. A smaller circle inside is "scouting for a fleet". Generalizing from the smaller subset to the larger set is potentially flawed thinking. It could be true, but in general it is fallacious thinking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7427 - 2016-11-10 20:25:12 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
The Kim jon-un strategy of flying around looking at things?

Lets play EvE like that exclusively. It sounds great.

To the post above last.



Wow, you get your panties in a knott because I referenced a propaganda technique and now you compare me to an actual dictator. Roll

And I made no such suggestion. I am merely pointing out that in certain contexts you do not need comms or anything third party to scout.

So lets see...we have an ad hominem and a straw man. But don't worry I won't report you.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7428 - 2016-11-10 20:26:16 UTC
I also don't need comms if I am scouting for myself. Well okay I could get on comms and use them, but only if I were playing like Jerghul. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7429 - 2016-11-10 20:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
"To post of above last" not equal your post.

Do try to keep up.

Also, post above yours mentions quite clearly that of course you would scout for yourself. As that was actually what you were describing, but with an imaginary friend proxy.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7430 - 2016-11-10 20:36:38 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
"To post of above last" not equal your post.

Do try to keep up.

Also, post above yours mentions quite clearly that of course you would scout for yourself. As that was actually what you were describing, but with an imaginary friend proxy.


Jerghul, since you are saying comms are required for scouting, and we are talking about scouting specifically as a replacement for the intel of local chat, how many nullsec alliances currently require comms for region wide intel chat channels?

The scouting required for fleets and the scouting required to replace local are two different things.

It's very amusing how you drift from one topic to another trying to make something of this as you are proven wrong though. Keep it up
Leena Turos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7431 - 2016-11-10 20:41:16 UTC
Eve Client comes with comms already you don't need TS or vent or anything else.

Cloaking needs to be nerfed as it stands in a sov system there is no way to find them, there is no way to protect your systems from attack cause you can't find the campers. then they covert cyno drop you and then it's game over. When sov is involved there has to be something to combat cloakers. even it is a 400km-1000km de-cloaky device thing that can be deployed that emits a burst that decloaks cloakers for a short amount of time. Or has some people have suggested using ice products like stont or heavy water to fuel the devices. Something simple is usually the best approach. Keep it simple stupid. take heed of this CCP.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7432 - 2016-11-10 20:52:16 UTC
Leena Turos wrote:
Eve Client comes with comms already you don't need TS or vent or anything else.

Cloaking needs to be nerfed as it stands in a sov system there is no way to find them, there is no way to protect your systems from attack cause you can't find the campers. then they covert cyno drop you and then it's game over. When sov is involved there has to be something to combat cloakers. even it is a 400km-1000km de-cloaky device thing that can be deployed that emits a burst that decloaks cloakers for a short amount of time. Or has some people have suggested using ice products like stont or heavy water to fuel the devices. Something simple is usually the best approach. Keep it simple stupid. take heed of this CCP.


Again, no. Such structures will be used by every gate camp and you'll just render even ATK cloaking nearly pointless. Cloaks have a purpose, to let people penetrate into enemy territory and operate there, even for extended time if they come with "truck" (read blockade runner).

And yes, using a covert cyno is indeed part of the way such game play works. You and your buddings go into enemy space. You send out scouts/hunters. When they find and tackle something they light the cyno everyone jumps in and blaps the target then warp off to a safe. Working as intended, IMO. All of it, the cloak and the cyno.

I agree that AFK cloaking is sub-optimal game play and fixing that would be good, but trying to fix it so you totally eliminate BLOPS as a mode of game play and imposing risk on NS players...no.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Leena Turos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7433 - 2016-11-10 21:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Leena Turos
Teckos Pech wrote:
Leena Turos wrote:
Eve Client comes with comms already you don't need TS or vent or anything else.

Cloaking needs to be nerfed as it stands in a sov system there is no way to find them, there is no way to protect your systems from attack cause you can't find the campers. then they covert cyno drop you and then it's game over. When sov is involved there has to be something to combat cloakers. even it is a 400km-1000km de-cloaky device thing that can be deployed that emits a burst that decloaks cloakers for a short amount of time. Or has some people have suggested using ice products like stont or heavy water to fuel the devices. Something simple is usually the best approach. Keep it simple stupid. take heed of this CCP.


Again, no. Such structures will be used by every gate camp and you'll just render even ATK cloaking nearly pointless. Cloaks have a purpose, to let people penetrate into enemy territory and operate there, even for extended time if they come with "truck" (read blockade runner).

And yes, using a covert cyno is indeed part of the way such game play works. You and your buddings go into enemy space. You send out scouts/hunters. When they find and tackle something they light the cyno everyone jumps in and blaps the target then warp off to a safe. Working as intended, IMO. All of it, the cloak and the cyno.

I agree that AFK cloaking is sub-optimal game play and fixing that would be good, but trying to fix it so you totally eliminate BLOPS as a mode of game play and imposing risk on NS players...no.


Not to eliminate BLOPS, BLOPS is fun, but when you have had a camper in almost every system you have sov over for 2 weeks or longer, making your gameplay almost pointless. It gets to point of why should i bother to play anymore if i can't fun doing the things I like doing? there is no penalty applied to camper. all the penality is on those actively trying to have fun in a game that is meant to be fun... without fun whats the point? So maybe not a deployable structure or at least no where near a gate but something needs to give balance here.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7434 - 2016-11-10 21:06:05 UTC
Lena
3rd party coms are actually mandatory in null-sec.

This requirement underlines serious limitations in access to real time information using the eve client exclusively.

Yah, the debate has rotated around command burst charge solution for afk cloaky campers for the last several hundred posts or so. Note that it boils down to a 5 hour timer in practical terms.

I agree with the post below yours that afk cloaky camping needs to be tempered somewhat, but not eliminated entirely (imo either by rending redundant, or by nerfing to irrelevance).

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7435 - 2016-11-10 21:13:26 UTC
Leena Turos wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Leena Turos wrote:
Eve Client comes with comms already you don't need TS or vent or anything else.

Cloaking needs to be nerfed as it stands in a sov system there is no way to find them, there is no way to protect your systems from attack cause you can't find the campers. then they covert cyno drop you and then it's game over. When sov is involved there has to be something to combat cloakers. even it is a 400km-1000km de-cloaky device thing that can be deployed that emits a burst that decloaks cloakers for a short amount of time. Or has some people have suggested using ice products like stont or heavy water to fuel the devices. Something simple is usually the best approach. Keep it simple stupid. take heed of this CCP.


Again, no. Such structures will be used by every gate camp and you'll just render even ATK cloaking nearly pointless. Cloaks have a purpose, to let people penetrate into enemy territory and operate there, even for extended time if they come with "truck" (read blockade runner).

And yes, using a covert cyno is indeed part of the way such game play works. You and your buddings go into enemy space. You send out scouts/hunters. When they find and tackle something they light the cyno everyone jumps in and blaps the target then warp off to a safe. Working as intended, IMO. All of it, the cloak and the cyno.

I agree that AFK cloaking is sub-optimal game play and fixing that would be good, but trying to fix it so you totally eliminate BLOPS as a mode of game play and imposing risk on NS players...no.


Not to eliminate BLOPS, BLOPS is fun, but when you have had a camper in almost every system you have sov over for 2 weeks or longer, making your gameplay almost pointless. It gets to point of why should i bother to play anymore if i can't fun doing the things I like doing? there is no penalty applied to camper. all the penality is on those actively trying to have fun in a game that is meant to be fun... without fun whats the point? So maybe not a deployable structure or at least no where near a gate but something needs to give balance here.

AFK cloaking is the direct counter to Local Chat channel being used as an intel channel. You can't nerf one with out nerfing the other.
Some popular nerfs to local is delayed local 2~5 minute before a player's name appears or change it from system wide to constellation/region wide.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7436 - 2016-11-10 21:37:25 UTC
Of course afk cloaky camping can be tempered (nerfed) somewhat without changing local. Stop being silly.

Local is however a poor way for individual players to access real time information. The Beta map may be a great way to give not only real time system information, but also consistently reliable updates on any system a player cares to track.

Breaking alliance monopolies on larger intelligence networks is to me a good thing that should be seen in connection with changing how real time information is made available to individual players.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7437 - 2016-11-10 21:39:10 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Of course afk cloaky camping can be tempered (nerfed) somewhat without changing local. Stop being silly.

Local is however a poor way for individual players to access real time information. The Beta map may be a great way to give not only real time system information, but also consistently reliable updates on any system a player cares to track.

Breaking alliance monopolies on larger intelligence networks is to me a good thing that should be seen in connection with changing how real time information is made available to individual players.


brb, going to keep the beta map open when ratting and close local, because when a red shows up in system it will tell me faster

Roll
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7438 - 2016-11-10 21:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Can you try to refrain from being so temporally challenged? It makes you seem less than intelligent.

The beta map system has the potential to replace both local as an information source, and alliance intelligence networks for updates on systems elsewhere.

But CCP would need to work on stuff first.

Its a thing with F U T U R E potential.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7439 - 2016-11-10 21:47:43 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Can you try to refrain from being so temporally challenged? It makes you seem less than intelligent.

The beta map system has the potential to replace both local as an information source, and alliance intelligence networks for updates on systems elsewhere.

But CCP would need to work on stuff first.

Its a thing with F U T U R E potential.


no, I just am not going to play your game where you change your argument at the drop of a hat to "win" here. Sorry for not taking your bait.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7440 - 2016-11-10 21:51:02 UTC
Discussions are by definition dynamic. Do try to keep up.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1