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Why Battleships?

First post
Author
Wanda Fayne
#121 - 2016-11-10 03:50:08 UTC
Fully T2 version, much higher resist profile and still more reps than T2 logi cruiser.

[Proteus, LogiProti2]
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Damage Control II
800mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Power Diagnostic System II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Cap Battery II
Medium Cap Battery II
Medium Cap Battery II

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II

Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x3
Hammerhead II x5


Scan Resolution Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x200
Mobile Depot x1

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2016-11-10 04:31:01 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Steffles wrote:

Show me a T3C that doesn't use oversized modules that is overpowered. I'd be interested to see one.


[Proteus, LogiProtiBeast]
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

Damage Control II
Federation Navy 800mm Steel Plates
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery
Republic Fleet Medium Cap Battery

Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II

Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot II x3
Hammerhead II x5


Scan Resolution Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x200
=========

Reps 80% more than a fully fitted Guardian.
54% more than a Oneiros.

Can do the same thing with a Tengu vs/ Basi or Scythe.

Fact:
T3C logi reps harder than a T2 logi.

Next argument...?


[Oneiros, Oneiros]
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

10MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
Medium Cap Battery II

Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

Reps out to 70km vs your 15km.
Has more cap and half the sig with same tank.
Pop in a 800mm and you can get it cap stable.
Much much cheaper.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Wanda Fayne
#123 - 2016-11-10 04:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Nope. Broke your own rules for the argument.

Now for the kicker...
Can you make it a covert ops cloaky logi?

Didn't think soBlink

(I can do both the Proti and Tengu as covops logi)
And still out-rep yours.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2016-11-10 04:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Nope.

Now for the kicker...
Can you make it a covert ops cloaky logi?

Didn't think soBlink

(I can do both the Proti and Tengu as covops logi)

Can't rep when you're cloaked.

As a logi ship survivability is extremely important (needing to be within 10 to 15km means you can't warp out when you're about to pop if you're in a bubble, you'll likely be in optimal with the combat ships, you'll likely be in optimal of jams, scrams and disruptors). Range of reps are extremely important. Sig of 70 vs 150 is a very good trade off as is the range. Dead logi's can't rep. Cost is also important. So is losing a weeks training.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Wanda Fayne
#125 - 2016-11-10 04:54:15 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Nope.

Now for the kicker...
Can you make it a covert ops cloaky logi?

Didn't think soBlink

(I can do both the Proti and Tengu as covops logi)

Can't rep when you're cloaked.

As a logi ship survivability is extremely important (needing to be within 10 to 15km means you can't warp out when you're about to pop if you're in a bubble, you'll likely be in optimal with the combat ships, you'll likely be in optimal of jams, scrams and disruptors). Range of reps are extremely important. Sig of 70 vs 150 is a very good trade off as is the range. Dead logi's can't rep. Cost is also important. So is losing a weeks training.


AND interdiction nullified.Blink

Goalpost is over here--->

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2016-11-10 05:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Steffles wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Nope.

Now for the kicker...
Can you make it a covert ops cloaky logi?

Didn't think soBlink

(I can do both the Proti and Tengu as covops logi)

Can't rep when you're cloaked.

As a logi ship survivability is extremely important (needing to be within 10 to 15km means you can't warp out when you're about to pop if you're in a bubble, you'll likely be in optimal with the combat ships, you'll likely be in optimal of jams, scrams and disruptors). Range of reps are extremely important. Sig of 70 vs 150 is a very good trade off as is the range. Dead logi's can't rep. Cost is also important. So is losing a weeks training.


AND interdiction nullified.Blink

Goalpost is over here--->

Your logi still has 10-13km range. Give me slightly less reps for an extra 60km range anyday. They're baby logi good for certain things but they're not fleet logi for large battles. Therefore they're not as good, or anywhere near as flexible and functional as dedicated logi ship. Also point out that at that range interdiction nully nerfs them with one less slot and doesn't help when theyr'e scramed or disrupted which they will be.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Wanda Fayne
#127 - 2016-11-10 05:07:36 UTC
Unfortunately your arguments are all over the place.

Posting a blingy T2 Onyx, then arguing cost is a factor, for example.
Saying no to battleship-sized mods and then putting one back in your argument, another example.

Fact is, Baltec1 is correct.

baltec1 wrote:

Its not the oversized mods, its the massive amount of bonuses T3C get coupled with ample fitting room. No amount of your posting is going to change anyones mind on this, we all know thse ships are horribly overpowered, CCP knows they are horribly overpowered and they have been for far far too long.


I'm done.


"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2016-11-10 05:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Unfortunately your arguments are all over the place.

Posting a blingy T2 Onyx, then arguing cost is a factor, for example.
Saying no to battleship-sized mods and then putting one back in your argument, another example.

Fact is, Baltec1 is correct.

baltec1 wrote:

Its not the oversized mods, its the massive amount of bonuses T3C get coupled with ample fitting room. No amount of your posting is going to change anyones mind on this, we all know thse ships are horribly overpowered, CCP knows they are horribly overpowered and they have been for far far too long.


I'm done.



Don't get salty I put large reppers on the Oneiros. There's a reason CCP gave the ships a 65% reduction in remote repair power fitting, wasn't my idea, they were designed to use large reppers :)

Baltec is clearly wrong as I demonstrated with evidence.

Edit: and cost is a factor in terms of logi. Logi die a lot, logi pilots are hard enough to get already, while they might be reimbursed for lost faction mods depending on alliance they can't be reimbursed for the loss of skillpoints unless people start giving out injectors :)

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Wanda Fayne
#129 - 2016-11-10 05:22:28 UTC
Roll

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-11-10 05:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Roll

Lol.

What you are faiing to understand is large reppers on a Oneiros, a ship with a bonus so it can fit large reppers, doesn't make the ship overpowered.

What makes ships like the Proteus, the Tengu, an Onyx or any other ship that was later added to the game is:

Large, Medium and Small mods were introduced into the game at launch. At that time we only had T1 ships. T1 ships have T1 resists.

Putting a large plate on a T1 ship doesn't add that much hp. There were no boosting ships at that point in time either so there was no multiplicative problem with it.

When T2 and T3 ships came out they had huge resists, at 90% base resists which some T2, T3 ships get its the equivalent of turning that 1 battleship plate into many plates given originally when plates came out resists were 30-40%. Remember plates used to be in competition with hardeners, at 90% you don't need many hardners so you just add plates, then you add your booster ship, which is again multiplicative.

Same goes for capacitor batteries and shield boosters.

Its the reason putting a XL booster and a large cap battery on a tengu takes it from boosting 800 to 2.5k making the ship virtually unkillable by any other ship or small gang without serious nueting pressure.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Asmodai Xodai
#131 - 2016-11-10 08:01:27 UTC
I don't know the T3C issues (oversized modules vs. "they're just inherently OP") well enough to have any opinion whatsoever. Would just like to say that I found the arguments presented by both sides interesting and engaging, and hope to see more of this kind of thing in the future.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2016-11-10 11:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Steffles wrote:

Show me a T3C that doesn't use oversized modules that is overpowered. I'd be interested to see one.



[Megathron, Baltec Fleet]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Shadow Serpentis Armor Explosive Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermal Hardener
Adaptive Nano Plating II

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Anti-EM Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

Pimp fitted baltec fleet mega. 166k EHP, 518 DPS, 135 m/s (968 m/s with MWD running) sig 380 (2.28k with MWD). Cost 660 mil

[Proteus, oh no Proteus]

Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

165k EHP, 574 DPS, 210 m/s (516 m/s with AB running), sig 176, Cost 625 mil.


So the T3 cruiser is faster (its cap stable running both its guns and its AB) , half the sig (or 12x smaller if the mega is using its MWD), a bit more firepower thanks to the insane tank allowing for 2 damage mods and to cap it all off, the damn thing is cheaper.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#133 - 2016-11-10 11:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
its not really cheaper though, if you die you're adding an injector on top of that.

And you're regengu style cruisers (onyx/tengu) are easy to counter so i dont think the "oversized" mods are the issue

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2016-11-10 11:14:47 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
its not really cheaper though, if you die you're adding an injector on top of that.


Who bothers with that?

You generally have the time between these fights to get that skill back.

We still have a cruiser that thinks its a battleship here.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#135 - 2016-11-10 11:20:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
its not really cheaper though, if you die you're adding an injector on top of that.


Who bothers with that?

You generally have the time between these fights to get that skill back.

We still have a cruiser that thinks its a battleship here.


yeah i agree, i think the t1 battelships dont offer enough of a bonus to even bother choosing over a t3, faction bs's may be a different story with the bonuses to ewar they offer

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2016-11-11 05:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
baltec1 wrote:
Steffles wrote:

Show me a T3C that doesn't use oversized modules that is overpowered. I'd be interested to see one.



[Megathron, Baltec Fleet]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Shadow Serpentis Armor Explosive Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermal Hardener
Adaptive Nano Plating II

500MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Anti-EM Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II
Large Trimark Armor Pump II

Pimp fitted baltec fleet mega. 166k EHP, 518 DPS, 135 m/s (968 m/s with MWD running) sig 380 (2.28k with MWD). Cost 660 mil

[Proteus, oh no Proteus]

Damage Control II
Imperial Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

165k EHP, 574 DPS, 210 m/s (516 m/s with AB running), sig 176, Cost 625 mil.


So the T3 cruiser is faster (its cap stable running both its guns and its AB) , half the sig (or 12x smaller if the mega is using its MWD), a bit more firepower thanks to the insane tank allowing for 2 damage mods and to cap it all off, the damn thing is cheaper.


[Brutix Navy Issue, Buffer RR]
Federation Navy 1600mm Steel Plates
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Ammatar Navy Reactor Control Unit
Damage Control II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
10MN Afterburner II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Valkyrie II x5
Valkyrie II x2


130k EHP + Remote Armor Repper, 609 dps, 182m/s (431m/s ab), sig 305, cost 577,000,000 including 4% grid implant

So cheaper than the T3, more dps, twice as much cargo, 30k less tank but 224 armor reps x number of ships in fleet, discounting any logi. Has utiliity for web (fitted) or tracking disruptor, damps etc etc, better range, slightly slower until in web range. Could also ditch the remote rep and fit a nuet

Clearly its a match for the T3 and my money would be on this over the T3 anyday in a fleet, its a better ship.

Fact is its not the T3's that overpowered, its the addition of the oversized mods and the battleships are vastly underpowered.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Memphis Baas
#137 - 2016-11-11 05:26:28 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Fact is its not the T3's that overpowered, its the addition of the oversized mods and the battleships are vastly underpowered.


You're going to argue that forever. Fact is, T3's are overpowered, AND battleships are underpowered.

The moment you say "T3's are not OP", everyone will argue and completely ignore your point ("battleships are underpowered"). Learn to debate.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2016-11-11 05:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Memphis Baas wrote:
Steffles wrote:
Fact is its not the T3's that overpowered, its the addition of the oversized mods and the battleships are vastly underpowered.


You're going to argue that forever. Fact is, T3's are overpowered, AND battleships are underpowered.

The moment you say "T3's are not OP", everyone will argue and completely ignore your point ("battleships are underpowered"). Learn to debate.

If T3's were overpowered then you wouldn't be able to fit a non-T3 to counter them. I clearly just fit a non-T3 fleet ship that is more versatile and better than Baltec1's fleet T3 therefore either a) they're not overpowered or 2) T3's are overpowered and Brutix Navy Issues are also overpowered. Do you think Brutix Navy Issues are overpowered?

In regards to Debating:

Quote:
Debating is all about the strategy of “proof”. Proof, or evidence, supporting your assertion is what makes it an argument.

How to Debate

Having said that your statement that
Quote:
Fact is, T3's are overpowered
contains no proof, is not an argument and therefore is not debating. Its just an statement of opinion without backup.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#139 - 2016-11-11 06:22:17 UTC
Battleships are the artillery of space combat. They are very large, with lots of firepower and range. Yet, they are not very effective if used unsupported.

OP you are assuming that you should be able to take out any ship and PvP effectively with it. Solo. But you can't do this with a Battleship. Battleships are fleet assets. They are not meant for solo combat.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2016-11-11 06:30:45 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:
Battleships are the artillery of space combat. They are very large, with lots of firepower and range. Yet, they are not very effective if used unsupported.

OP you are assuming that you should be able to take out any ship and PvP effectively with it. Solo. But you can't do this with a Battleship. Battleships are fleet assets. They are not meant for solo combat.

Its clearly been demonstrated that:

They are large - meaning they have less ehp due to sig tanking and speed tanking. Large is a bad thing in EvE unless you're a supercapital with millions of HP.

They do not have lots of firepower, the siz size of their guns and the sig radius and speed of anything smaller than a battleship negates their firepower to the point they usually do less dps to the target than the small target does to them.

They have range but given the mobile nature of EvE combat that range is easily negated by the smaller faster ships which can easily dictate the range that battleships engage at.

Given the nature of EvE combat, CCP made the decision in 2005 that most ships were supposed to be fleet / gang ships not just the battleship. Very few fights in EvE are solo fights. The majority of fights are small gang to fleet fights. Which makes the battleships are not meant to be solo comment moot.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg