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active tanks also give ship incoming damage cap

Author
Knight Jay
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-11-06 15:38:41 UTC
To make active tank a viable fleet option would there be a feasible way to give active reps the added bonus of adding a incoming damage cap to a ship. If done right I think it might be able to add a interesting dimension to fleet battles.
Just a rough idea would like some constructive feedback on. Ie not just No. Please think of your objections and then consider a way to make this work.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#2 - 2016-11-06 15:50:07 UTC
bring zee neuts.

/fleet

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2016-11-06 16:02:25 UTC
fit a repper to a fleet ship, get an incoming damage cap as well as receiving remote reps? Genius! Roll


Also why do dreads and FAX need this kind of a buff?
Iain Cariaba
#4 - 2016-11-06 17:04:19 UTC
Knight Jay wrote:
To make active tank a viable fleet option would there be a feasible way to give active reps the added bonus of adding a incoming damage cap to a ship. If done right I think it might be able to add a interesting dimension to fleet battles.
Just a rough idea would like some constructive feedback on. Ie not just No. Please think of your objections and then consider a way to make this work.

The only way to make your idea work is to nerf remote reps into oblivion. Otherwise, as Danika said, you fit one local rep and bring enough logi to perma-rep the cap. Instant invincible ships all over New Eden.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#5 - 2016-11-06 17:23:44 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Instant invincible ships all over New Eden.



You make that sound like a bad thing lol.....I am sure the person in the incoming damage capped ship getting RR would love it. They'd be happy anyway.

Think of the possibilities. It make polarized weapons the new black. When you want to take damage to have damage cap met...do it in style. Polarized damage and polarized 0'ing resists to make sure you hit damage cap.

OP, yeah, you have imba issues here in all seriousness.
Knight Jay
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-11-06 19:02:31 UTC
well surely if you have a active rep it wouldnt be able to get rr as well. and certain ships that just cant use it.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-11-06 22:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Don't forget io include this obvious attempt to save the phenomenon including example to answer obvious questions, such as "No RR while local reps are active vs. only needing reps to be fitted for effect."

How to avoid people in BS/t3's from having a massive buffer tank and a token small repper to immediately have a raw damage cap, but receive RR as soon as the initial alpha target is switched, and the token repper turned off?

Why this should give advantages to ships with larger sig created by such buffer tanks?

If the effect applied to ships that have the repper/s fitted then, remember this idea is only to lessen the effect ofalpha ships, your damage cap calculations will be done per second, the ships that do not use alpha have more DPS applied slowly/er, and cannot recieve incomming reps( questions about cap transfer arise).

I see this as a way to create stalemates or give the upperhand to alpha ships with logi, but at slightly closer ranges if Bhaals and other neuting speciallist ships are used. The reason being all it takes are focused neuts to render active tank/active resist ships defenses useless.

This also gives alpha ships with large buffers more time to catch reps which are more effective as they are more numerous, unneutable [basi and guardians]) and can alpha faster with close range guns(alpha guns are mostly arty, but have used autocannnons and usually have utility highs in which a neut can be packed).

Projectile ships also do not require cap to fire their guns. Alpha ships are used because they hit harder and faster than reps can land. Neuts mean that ship will still be hit with the full damage allowed by the cap, but without resists and local reps.

Ok, only pack a single active resist and fill everything else with passives. Neuts still mean you are only dying slower.

I see no merit in this idea, unsupported

TL;DR:
no

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#8 - 2016-11-06 23:53:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Knight Jay wrote:
well surely if you have a active rep it wouldnt be able to get rr as well. and certain ships that just cant use it.

In which case, my question would be why bother to fit that active tank if you need to bring logistics anyway?

If some ships can't use it but they have a role in the fleet, then you need logistics to support them.

So if you are bringing logistics, surely that lowslot or midslot that has your active armor or shield rep is better taken by a utility module that adds to the fleet in some other way (eg. damage, target painting, damps, disruptors, etc.).

Even in a case where every ship has the ability to fit an active tank, dedicated logistics will still win out as a choice for a fleet, so the active tank isn't needed.

In small gangs we run full active tanking fleets regularly. But once the fleet gets to a reasonable size, logistics as a force multiplier is better than additional DPS, especially in this proposal where the incoming DPS is capped anyway. That also means, when facing another fleet using those modules, your fleets outgoing DPS is also capped to an extent, so may as well bring logi instead.
Knight Jay
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-11-07 00:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Knight Jay
i am more thinking along the lines of a active tank rep mod reducing a big fleet fight to effectively 2-3 ship max worth of damage vs the active tank ship. while it WILL DIE as the active repper can never keep up with the full dammage cap worth of damage coming in; it would mean that while active tank repper is running the ship has a few advantages.
And kind of creates a role for active tank in fleets.

fight breaks out----
fleets fight as normal with RR.
a ship turns on its active repper for example a battleship ie a megathron.
It can no longer receive RR. But gains a incoming damage cap.
The ship then especially in the case of lights can mitigate the extra damage through clever piloting or gain a short but possibly crucial time where it can do things that would not normally happen in a fleet fight. IE charge the hostile line or help kill hostile logi/buffer via tackling neuting.

However it is balanced so that its active tank damage cap is always about 15-25% or what ever appropriate percentage over it's max repair per second thus ensuring it will not be invincible. The idea here is to create a kind of wild card. These ships would add a significant dimension to fleet fights as they would not be able to be primed and alpha-ed off the field.

And would require a dedicated counter. most likely counter active tank ships be it via support modules or your own active tankers. This would kind of break a fleet fight into layers. While RR/BUFFER (the current fleet meta) would fight it out. Active tank would be almost destine to fighting each other. The interesting thing would come with one buffer/rr ignoring hostile active tankers or not bringing counter. Allowing them near your buffer un-countered could lead to vital missed time or losses for the buffer fleet. It would also mean the current issue with tackle and lights having no place on the field of many fleet fights especially at battleship/capital level fights would be alleviated. As nearly all light ships such as interceptors etc would probably run active. And while this would stop them being suppressed by ecm/webs it would mean the entire fleet blapping them off the field would be unpractical and thus killing them would be the job of your tackle/lights.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-11-07 00:46:33 UTC
Knight Jay wrote:
i am more thinking along the lines of a active tank rep mod reducing a big fleet fight to effectively 2-3 ship max worth of damage vs the active tank ship. while it WILL DIE as the active repper can never keep up with the full dammage cap worth of damage coming in; it would mean that while active tank repper is running the ship has a few advantages.
And kind of creates a role for active tank in fleets.

fight breaks out----
fleets fight as normal with RR.
a ship turns on its active repper for example a battleship ie a megathron.
It can no longer receive RR. But gains a incoming damage cap.
However it is balanced so that its active tank damage cap is always about 15-25% or what ever appropriate percentage over it's max repair per second thus ensuring it will not be invincible. The idea here is to create a kind of wild card. These ships would add a significant dimension to fleet fights as they would not be able to be primed and alpha-ed off the field.

And would require a dedicated counter. most likely counter active tank ships be it via support modules or your own active tankers. This would kind of break a fleet fight into layers. While RR/BUFFER (the current fleet meta) would fight it out. Active tank would be almost destine to fighting each other. The interesting thing would come with buffer/rr ignoring hostile active tankers. allowing them near your buffer un-countered could lead to vital missed time or losses for the buffer fleet.
It would also mean the current issue with tackle and lights having no place on the field of many fleet battleship/capital level fights would be alleviated. As nearly all light ships such as interceptors etc would probably run active. And while this would stop them being suppressed by ecm/webs it would mean the entire fleet blapping them off the field would be unpractical and thus killing them would be the job of your tackle/lights.



Marauders are now invulnerable, as are FAX, and dreads are really not that far off.

Anything with a properly staggered multi-asb tank too.

And you have never been in a fleet fight, have you.
Knight Jay
Doomheim
#11 - 2016-11-07 01:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Knight Jay
they are not at all. they just have a very short INCREDIBLY HIGH RPS. These ships while great to a extent as active tankers are rendered useless once a fleet fight reaches certain damage outputs This is the case across EVE for active tanking and as you say is why active tanking only happens in small scale fights.. This is perfectly shown with FAX where they support a tank that is amazing for a short time but break as soon as ACR runs out OR the damage incoming complete renders active tanking moot.

What i am suggesting is kind of similar to a ehe or seige or bastion or triage. putting active tanking some where between both. it doesnt make the local rep super nor make the ship invulnerable. it only limits the incoming damage, ie instead of just making active tanking amazing to a point; it instead brings the incoming damage down to a point active tanking is just receiving a reasonable amount over it's max ability to handle IE it means that once a fight escalate past a certain level of damage active repping mitigates that for a limited time.. Thus for the active tank ship even if the fight has escalated to 100v1 it is no worse than a fight of 3vs1. This as you see with triple rep battle-cruisers buys the active tanker time. Yes he will die if he does not get out or mitigate the excess damage via current methods such as speed/sig tanking. But he might get kills or do something incredibly useful Or if fit right. Survive long enough for a rr backup system to arrive and take over and provide the current invulnerability of catching reps from enough logi and become part oif the buffer fleet... The buffer fit parts of the hostile fleet would be wasting their time shooting him but their own active tankers could happily go web/scramble/neut support warfare them or kill them.
It would bring ships like active tank blaster boats or other short range ships into the big fleet fights.
It would mean interceptors and destroyers would actually have a role to play dealing with each other and other local reppers as while as give them serviceability to get in and really play a role against the bulk buffer fit parts of the fleet.
It would mean a large buffer fleet would not instantly wipe out a smaller local rep gang.

Balance is kind of simple as it just requires the cap to work it's self out based on being slightly over the max rps.
And not having the damage cap on fax in triage. or siege or bastion
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2016-11-07 02:09:21 UTC
you do have a damage cap.... it's the same has your EHP
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#13 - 2016-11-07 16:36:02 UTC
FFS OP, do you even play this game?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#14 - 2016-11-07 20:28:04 UTC
Damage cas for ships are a bad idea. There are too many variables when trying to figure out what a given ship's cap would be, as ships can be fit with wildly different resists and base HP values due to not only fitting (scannable) but also skills, boosters, implants, etc. (all unscannable)

Damage caps on ships are basically a hell of "oh, zero damage, better switch, oh, better switch again" ad infinitum with no real way to pick out targets for people proactively or direct a fleet to shoot them proactively.

Ships are not citadels. They do not all have the same resists and buffer HP.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#15 - 2016-11-08 03:45:33 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
FFS OP, do you even play this game?


Nope. Neither does half of us and most of CCP, given the forums' histories.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-11-08 06:14:39 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Damage cas for ships are a bad idea. There are too many variables when trying to figure out what a given ship's cap would be, as ships can be fit with wildly different resists and base HP values due to not only fitting (scannable) but also skills, boosters, implants, etc. (all unscannable)

Damage caps on ships are basically a hell of "oh, zero damage, better switch, oh, better switch again" ad infinitum with no real way to pick out targets for people proactively or direct a fleet to shoot them proactively.

Ships are not citadels. They do not all have the same resists and buffer HP.

Hmmm

Firstly you would base your cap on hull size, small medium large capital.

Secondly resists and HP values don't matter, only applied damage after resists matters.

Third, you would not put a hard cap on ships, you would use a diminishing returns cap. You could still alpha a ship you'd simply be required to use exponentially larger numbers to do so which in terms of efficiency would be stupid - example expending 100 ships on a single target might cause their logi to have to all target that target and rep 100,000 dps whereas splitting damage to 3 targets causing their logi to rep 500,000 dps would put a much higher strain on the logi.

Would it be harder, not for competent FC's, would it require more skill and adaptation, might you need to have multiple FC's and break your alpha fleet into smaller independent wings, sure. Less F1 monkeying is better for the game.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg